Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 10:48:13 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Nick
T
I have been flying my Carat for 3 yrs now and have no regrets. I purchased it for retirement so I can go to the local airport when I travel to fly. Scarcity of towplanes was the driving factor. The Carat is the Discus wing and tail mounted on their fuselage. I have never had a problem with the Sauer engine. Performance has been great with summer time launches in Tucson and Moriarty. One other flies out of Parowan, Ely and Nephi. I love the upright seating and the convenentional gear makes taxiing a breeze since neither wing is down. The only two negatives have been high wing loading in weak conditions and it tends to do poorly in heavy sink. Falls out of the sky if you have to fly above 90 kias. Super easy assembly and great trailer. I'm told it sounds like a J3 cub. Love it.

On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 8:30:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 10:48:13 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well..

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Nick
T
I have been flying my Carat for 3 yrs now and have no regrets. I purchased it for retirement so I can go to the local airport when I travel to fly. Scarcity of towplanes was the driving factor. The Carat is the Discus wing and tail mounted on their fuselage. I have never had a problem with the Sauer engine. Performance has been great with summer time launches in Tucson and Moriarty. One other flies out of Parowan, Ely and Nephi. I love the upright seating and the convenentional gear makes taxiing a breeze since neither wing is down. The only two negatives have been high wing loading in weak conditions and it tends to do poorly in heavy sink. Falls out of the sky if you have to fly above 90 kias. Super easy assembly and great trailer. I'm told it sounds like a J3 cub. Love it.

Sorry Nick, I can't help with the cost to replace an ASH-26E engine with all the bits. Fortunately, I haven't had to find out! I do hope to see you again sometime in the Great Basin. It's been a long time. Maybe someone that's been thru this exercise could help. Painful, I'm sure!
Russ

Love my DG 400. I have had to do a little work but able to get parts so far. No motor breakdown work.

On the gear, there is a service bulletin that covers a number of the DG models. It was done to my glider and makes the mechanism more robust with a positive catch and spring on the handle. Also changing the gas spring on the gear is important if not done in years.

Vibration, I have had the prop balanced by Russel Brown at Seminole when flying at the Seniors. Took about an hour using a Dynavibe. Put small washers in different locations around the prop hub where it bolts together. Very significant vibration reduction, pitch of prop changed, and even got a couple hundred RPM on static run.

Great bird for the money.

Kevin
92

If you are considering a high end new or newish high performance glider, the obvious choice is between an ASH 31 and a Ventus 3M (shows my prejudice against DG's and full size open class gliders)!. At significantly lower cost it could be an ASH 26E or Ventus 2 CM. I think I would choose a Ventus 3M

I have had two motorgliders, a Wankel engined ASH 26E and a Solo engined Arcus M. The engine technologies have pros and cons. The Wankel is as others have said perfectly smooth but it needs warming up and cooling down. The Solo engine may be fractionally less smooth but I really don't find an issue with it in practise. I think most of the problems experienced with either type have been from causes which have nothing to do with the internals of the engine - things like pylon position sensors out of position or going wrong, exhaust issues, or aspects of the electrics. Most of the time either type will do a good job of self-launching or self-retrieving, and an adequate though not great job of repositioning.

In considering the advantages of an ASH 31 over an ASH 26, apart from the availability of 21m tips as well as 18m tips, consider that 26's are getting to an age where they are likely to be less reliable (the one I used to own currently has wiring issues, not for the first time) and may need refinishing now or before long. The 31 also has injection whereas the 26 has a somewhat mickey mouse carburettor, which should make the 31 more suited to high altitude flight as well as more reliable.

Currently, I would not be ready to buy an electric self-launcher - I would want more endurance if buying a self-launcher. My calculations suggested that the petrol Arcus has about 8 times the endurance of the electric version (of which extremely few have been built) and I heard of someone switching off the motor after climbing to 500 feet in order to preserve battery for a potential self-retrieve. Admittedly that was for flight in very hostile terrain, but I like to think I have enough fuel on board to climb to a reasonable height, to relight if necessary, and to self-retrieve at the end of the day. I must admit that I have never needed to do all that! But I have certainly enjoyed being able to taxi back after tailing to stay up and immediately take a relight without worrying about the endurance I have left. I expect that as the energy density of batteries improves electric engines will become dominant, and I worry that this will affect the sale-ability of petrol engined self-launchers.

I consider FES as primarily a sustainer with a bonus self launch capability.. You don’t get both in the same flight. The self launch is primarily for the occasional situation you can’t otherwise get a tow (mid week, tow plane down, tow pilot unavailable etc]. The self launch may get you in the air when you otherwise can’t, but probably wouldn’t be sufficient for a relight at the end of the day.

Ramy

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 3:18:06 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
I consider FES as primarily a sustainer with a bonus self launch capability. You don’t get both in the same flight. The self launch is primarily for the occasional situation you can’t otherwise get a tow (mid week, tow plane down, tow pilot unavailable etc]. The self launch may get you in the air when you otherwise can’t, but probably wouldn’t be sufficient for a relight at the end of the day.

Ramy

The guy with a MiniLAK FES at Ely, NV this year took tows. On his first flight, he got stuck 60 miles out. He knew that the energy in the battery did not permit climbing to an altitude to clear the mountain ranges between him and the airport, and cruise the 60 mi back to Ely, so he used his battery capacity to, wisely, search for a landable area (which can be hard to find in this area of NV). He landed out successfully and was retrieved by ground.. This is yet another story. Personally, I would not fly any electric glider out of Ely.

Tom

On 9/22/20 3:09 PM, waremark wrote:


I expect that as the energy density of batteries improves electric engines will become dominant, and I worry that this will affect the sale-ability of petrol engined self-launchers.

Even without advances like dilithium crystal batteries, we have the
prospect of politicians getting into power who have sworn to get rid of
fossil fuels altogether. That brings up the prospect of electric
towplanes that can do one or two launches a day, then back to the hangar
for their recharge.

On Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 11:10:57 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
On 9/22/20 3:09 PM, waremark wrote:


I expect that as the energy density of batteries improves electric engines will become dominant, and I worry that this will affect the sale-ability of petrol engined self-launchers.

Even without advances like dilithium crystal batteries, we have the
prospect of politicians getting into power who have sworn to get rid of
fossil fuels altogether. That brings up the prospect of electric
towplanes that can do one or two launches a day, then back to the hangar
for their recharge.

Or electric winches tied into main distribution, or perhaps solar power to batteries. Or electric car tow to 1,000', then FES.

You won't need tow planes or winches when everyone has an electric self
launch: everyone just has to get a lot richer.
It's not a problem, our politicians have it all under control, look at how

well we Europeans are doing with Brexit & Covid.....
And, yes, it's raining.

Dave Walsh wrote on 9/24/2020 5:11 AM:
You won't need tow planes or winches when everyone has an electric self
launch: everyone just has to get a lot richer.
It's not a problem, our politicians have it all under control, look at how

well we Europeans are doing with Brexit & Covid.....
And, yes, it's raining.

There is an alternative to getting a lot richer: clubs and partnerships. With just
two people in a partnership, your purchase cost is one half, and you no longer
have to support a tow plane or pay tow fees. If you can fly near your home, you
can avoid travel and motel costs, too. The partners can fly whenever their
schedule and the weather permit, and even take advantage of marginal soaring
conditions without the inconvenience or expense of a retrieve, so the utilization
of the glider is higher than a towed glider.

So, instead of "a lot richer", you only have to be "modestly richer", and with
three owners of a glider, maybe not even richer at all, especially as the used
market for FES gliders increases in the next few years. A club might find an FES
glider a good value, particularly if they want to encourage cross-country soaring.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1