Discussion on dealing with future ADIZ Incursions by light A/C

I don't know the answer to that, but I do have an opinion about what
will eventually happen, and it won't be because some pilot made a
mistake.

There are, being generous, about 1,000,000 pilots in this country.
Probably less are active pilots, and even amoung the active, less are
proficient.

There are over 300,000,000 people living in this country. If you do
the math, you see that pilots are a tiny minority of the general
population.

We have no clout. I don't care how many AOPA members there are, we
have no real clout. When McVeigh blew up the Federal building, I
didn't see anyone immediately halting the rental of large trucks, nor
was the sale of fertilizer stopped. People could still buy diesel.

But when three planes hit the twin towers and the Pentagon, all
flight, including of all places Alaska, was halted. The reason was
that although I was afraid of trucks parked in front of buildings for
a while, there were just too many of them and too few light aircraft.

The reality here is this. We will be restricted as the European pilots
are now. It's just a matter of time. And since we are viewed
essentually as a bunch of Saturday and Sunday flying enthusiasts - it
will be easy to make draconian restrictions that we will fight and
lose.

The gravy days of flight are gone. When I was young, I could hop in my
dads Champ and fly about with nary a care. It's sad to see them go.


On 12 May 2005 09:20:01 -0700, "Hank Rausch"
wrote:

I would like to start a thread on what I see as the most pertinent
take-away from yesterday's incursion: How can the current responses be
modified to make the response more relevant to the threat, when the
inevitable occurs again and a pilot gets lost? Assuming pilots won't
get lost in the future doesn't seem very realistic (how many of us can
say that we were never lost?). And there seems to be general consensus
that the images on CNN of F-16's cavorting while the Cessna put-putted
its merry way, interspersed with shots of people fleeing the Capitol,
were faintly ridiculous and put the US in a bad light. So what's the
solution? CNN showed a red-green laser system they want to use to
signal pilots, but it's not clear how this would have addressed the
most recent incursion.

One of the issues is that there is no easy way to distinguish a 1200
sqawk from an L-4 (no, or minimum, threat) from the same squawk from a
G-4, which I think all of can agree could do significant damage.
Consequently, we adopt a one-resposne fits all policy to any incursion.
Are there any technological tricks which would help tailor the response
to the type of ariplane involved?

Hank Rausch
N8806T

The gravy days of flight are gone. When I was young, I could hop in my
dads Champ and fly about with nary a care. It's sad to see them go.

Not quite. Come to the Midwest -- the flying is still the same.

For now, anyway.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:CcTge.77122$WI3.35627@attbi_s71...
The gravy days of flight are gone. When I was young, I could hop in my
dads Champ and fly about with nary a care. It's sad to see them go.

Not quite. Come to the Midwest -- the flying is still the same.

On second thought don't. We like the lack of traffic.


For now, anyway.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
m...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:CcTge.77122$WI3.35627@attbi_s71...
The gravy days of flight are gone. When I was young, I could hop in my
dads Champ and fly about with nary a care. It's sad to see them go.

Not quite. Come to the Midwest -- the flying is still the same.

On second thought don't. We like the lack of traffic.

Ummm...that the Midwest. Where are you flying?

BTW, come out to the front range of the Rockies; maneuvering around all the
MOA's is like dodging shoppers in the aisle of a Wal-Mart.

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message ...


Ummm...that the Midwest. Where are you flying?

BTW, come out to the front range of the Rockies; maneuvering around all the
MOA's is like dodging shoppers in the aisle of a Wal-Mart.



MOAs are shared airspace, right?

How can the current responses be
modified to make the response more relevant to the threat

What threat?

Serious question - identify the "threat" we are supposed to respond to,
and put it in context with other similar threats, and then it would make
sense to talk about possible reactions.

Personally, I see no threat whatsoever when a 150 flies over the White
House. Before we can identify the solution, it's important to identify
the problem, and be sure we are all talking about the -same- problem,
and be sure it -is- a problem.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

quoted from Jose's post:

What threat?

Serious question - identify the "threat" we are supposed to respond
to,
and put it in context with other similar threats, and then it would
make
sense to talk about possible reactions.

Thank you, this is the heart of the question--the ADIZ creates a buffer
zone that allows civil defense time to characterize the nature and
intent of unidentified aircraft before they can reach a high value
target. But its most serious flaw is that presently, we have no good
way of sorting out incursions due to navigational error or
communications failures from a genuine hostile attack, without
scrambling fighters and evacuating people, which resulted in the fiasco
we saw on the 11th and also the fiasco that resulted when the Kentucky
Governor's plane's transponder failed.

Contributing to the problem is the very planes that are most likely to
cause the problems--light trainers with rudimentary navigation and
dodgy communication equipment, and (arguably) less skillful PIC's--
also present the least viable potential threat. Because the current
technology only allows for a "one size fits all" interdiction policy,
we have the mess we're in currently. If there were a way to determine,
at point of incursion, what the plane is, we could tailor the response,
and avoid the bad publicity and general ignominy we saw with this last
incursion.

Hank

Serious question - identify the "threat" we are supposed to respond
to, and put it in context with other similar threats, and then it would
make sense to talk about possible reactions.


Thank you, this is the heart of the question--the ADIZ creates a buffer
zone that allows civil defense time to characterize the nature and
intent of unidentified aircraft before they can reach a high value
target.

Why is this necessary? It's not done with cars, itenerant rental vans,
people with colds or ebola virus, or ideas on the internet.

Why is this done only at the Capitol? It can be reasonably argued that
there are equally high value targets around every major city, and parts
of the midwest.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:

It's not done with cars, itenerant rental vans,
people with colds or ebola virus, or ideas on the internet.

Well, cars and trucks are intercepted entering Manhattan. Easy enough to do with
an island.

Why is this done only at the Capitol? It can be reasonably argued that
there are equally high value targets around every major city, and parts
of the midwest.

Hush! Mayor Daley has been asking exactly the same question for years. You want
to have to fly around another ADIZ to get to Oshkosh?

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

Well, cars and trucks are intercepted entering Manhattan. Easy enough to do with an island.

Cars and trucks entering Manhattan don't have to be on an authorized
flight plan, nor do they have to be tracked after they enter.

Mayor Daley has been asking exactly the same question for years. You want to have to fly around another ADIZ to get to Oshkosh?

Since I'm not going to Oshkosh, why should I care?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.