Running dry?

Greg Copeland wrote:
(http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182044-1.html), he not only recommends
running tanks dry but puts forth a powerful argument that it's a
responsible fuel management strategy. Furthermore, Deakin also offers
that he has never found an NTSB accident report related to a failed engine
start when running a tank dry and switching to the next.


WE had one of our Lances crash at RDU one foggy morning that I believe was due
to the pilot running one tank dry while on the ILS inbound from the outer
marker. He hit the tops of the trees, spun around and down one and landed flat
in a densely wooded area to the north of the field. The resulting fire
destroyed the aircraft pretty completely. Fortunately, the pilot walked away
from it with just a superficial cut on his forehead.

He may have tried to restart but just didn't have enough time before he sank
into the trees. Clean, a Lance will come down at 1100 FPM; it's gonna be
considerably faster with the gear hanging out like it would after intercepting
the glideslope.

http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph...at&pos =71003

I've got some pictures of this wreck; you wouldn't believe it was possible for
anyone to survive. Here's one of them:

http://home.carolina.rr.com/jayhanig/crash4.jpg

Now, to get back to the first question: how often does one run a tank dry
intentionally? If I was in a Cherokee Six with four tanks and had passengers,
hopefully never. The downside of this is that if you left just a couple of
estimated gallons in each tank, you have lost a significant amount of useful
fuel.

If I were trying to stretch a flight and even then only if I were alone, I might
consider running one dry. But I have to tell you: running a tank dry in a
Cherokee results in te longest 30 seconds of your life. I ran a C-210 tank dry
once and almost the second I hit the boost after switching the fuel selector I
got a restart. Not so in the Cherokee... it takes a while. A loooong while.
Kind of scarey.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

WE had one of our Lances crash at RDU one foggy morning that I believe was due
to the pilot running one tank dry while on the ILS inbound from the outer
marker.
snip

I would certainly hope that if one desired to *deliberately* run a tank
dry, that pilot would not choose the approach phase to do so.

--
Peter
























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Peter R. wrote:
I would certainly hope that if one desired to *deliberately* run a tank
dry, that pilot would not choose the approach phase to do so.


Well, it runs dry when it's empty. I wouldn't have picked that particular
moment myself. In this case, I believe the pilot was an idiot. He used to joke
about how far he would fly without refueling. I didn't see that he had a future
in aviation. The boss canned him after the Lance went down.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
.com...
Peter R. wrote:
I would certainly hope that if one desired to *deliberately* run a tank
dry, that pilot would not choose the approach phase to do so.


Well, it runs dry when it's empty. I wouldn't have picked that particular
moment myself. In this case, I believe the pilot was an idiot. He used
to joke about how far he would fly without refueling. I didn't see that
he had a future in aviation. The boss canned him after the Lance went
down.

Actually, the boss should have canned him when he started joking about how
far he could fly without refueling. If I had a pilot working for me doing
this, even joking, I'd have him in my office in five seconds to either
straighten him out or get rid of him. This kind of talk, even around the
flight office, can have a very bad effect on a commercial operation, and no
pilot who ever worked for me would have survived with me long enough to run
dry on the localizer.
Dudley Henriques

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:19:04 +0000, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

WE had one of our Lances crash at RDU one foggy morning that I believe
was due to the pilot running one tank dry while on the ILS inbound from
the outer marker. He hit the tops of the trees, spun around and down
one and landed flat in a densely wooded area to the north of the field.
The resulting fire destroyed the aircraft pretty completely.
Fortunately, the pilot walked away from it with just a superficial cut
on his forehead.



Let me be clear here, I am not talking about accidentally running a tank
dry. In fact, if done as Deakin and Cook prescribe, it probably would of
prevented the accident you mention.

He may have tried to restart but just didn't have enough time before he
sank into the trees. Clean, a Lance will come down at 1100 FPM; it's
gonna be considerably faster with the gear hanging out like it would
after intercepting the glideslope.

http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph...at&pos =71003

Again, this sounds like an accident caused by poor planning. This is not
what I'm talking about. Poor fuel management is poor fuel management.
Let's not confuse the two.

Now, to get back to the first question: how often does one run a tank
dry intentionally? If I was in a Cherokee Six with four tanks and had
passengers, hopefully never. The downside of this is that if you left
just a couple of estimated gallons in each tank, you have lost a
significant amount of useful fuel.

Deakin specifically addresses the issue with passengers on board. In his
opinion, proper passenger briefing, a timer, and calm behavior on part of
the pilot is key.


If I were trying to stretch a flight and even then only if I were alone,
I might consider running one dry. But I have to tell you: running a
tank dry in a Cherokee results in te longest 30 seconds of your life. I
ran a C-210 tank dry once and almost the second I hit the boost after
switching the fuel selector I got a restart. Not so in the Cherokee...
it takes a while. A loooong while. Kind of scarey.

If you have not done so, please read his article and see what you think. I
must say, my impression of your position is one of fear not one of reason.
Am I wrong?

I must admit, I certainly would not expect something like a 30-second
delay. I would expect something more in line of a couple of seconds at
most. Perhaps it was a could of seconds but felt like 30?

Greg

I must admit, I certainly would not expect something like a 30-second
delay.
I have run the left and right outboard tanks on a Cherokee Six dry, and
because I had a fuel totalizer I knew within a few minutes when the tank
would be dry. Engine restart just required the electric Aux fuel pump,
lower the nose slightly and restart occured in less than 5 seconds. The
first time though, it was a long five seconds. BTW I did this with a much
more experienced ATP/CFI/CFII with me. One of the reasons to empty the
outboard tanks, it that they have more affect on roll than the inboard
tanks, which are not run dry.

Dan

"Greg Copeland" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:19:04 +0000, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

WE had one of our Lances crash at RDU one foggy morning that I believe
was due to the pilot running one tank dry while on the ILS inbound from
the outer marker. He hit the tops of the trees, spun around and down
one and landed flat in a densely wooded area to the north of the field.
The resulting fire destroyed the aircraft pretty completely.
Fortunately, the pilot walked away from it with just a superficial cut
on his forehead.



Let me be clear here, I am not talking about accidentally running a tank
dry. In fact, if done as Deakin and Cook prescribe, it probably would of
prevented the accident you mention.

He may have tried to restart but just didn't have enough time before he
sank into the trees. Clean, a Lance will come down at 1100 FPM; it's
gonna be considerably faster with the gear hanging out like it would
after intercepting the glideslope.

http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph...at&pos =71003

Again, this sounds like an accident caused by poor planning. This is not
what I'm talking about. Poor fuel management is poor fuel management.
Let's not confuse the two.

Now, to get back to the first question: how often does one run a tank
dry intentionally? If I was in a Cherokee Six with four tanks and had
passengers, hopefully never. The downside of this is that if you left
just a couple of estimated gallons in each tank, you have lost a
significant amount of useful fuel.

Deakin specifically addresses the issue with passengers on board. In his
opinion, proper passenger briefing, a timer, and calm behavior on part of
the pilot is key.


If I were trying to stretch a flight and even then only if I were alone,
I might consider running one dry. But I have to tell you: running a
tank dry in a Cherokee results in te longest 30 seconds of your life. I
ran a C-210 tank dry once and almost the second I hit the boost after
switching the fuel selector I got a restart. Not so in the Cherokee...
it takes a while. A loooong while. Kind of scarey.

If you have not done so, please read his article and see what you think. I
must say, my impression of your position is one of fear not one of reason.
Am I wrong?

I must admit, I certainly would not expect something like a 30-second
delay. I would expect something more in line of a couple of seconds at
most. Perhaps it was a could of seconds but felt like 30?

Greg

Greg Copeland wrote:
Again, this sounds like an accident caused by poor planning. This is not
what I'm talking about. Poor fuel management is poor fuel management.
Let's not confuse the two.


My bad. I absolutely agree it was caused by poor fuel management. I also
concede your point that the article is about *intentionally* running the tank
dry to squeeze every drop.


Deakin specifically addresses the issue with passengers on board. In his
opinion, proper passenger briefing, a timer, and calm behavior on part of
the pilot is key.


I don't care how calm the pilot is: the average passenger isn't enough in love
with aviation to tolerate this. You can brief all you want. Some people fear
spiders no matter how beneficial you tell them they might be. It's the same way
when the engine quits, particularly when you have no control over the matter.
Ever been driving in the mountains going a little too fast around the curves?
The driver doesn't mind... he's got his hands on the wheel and is in control.
It's a whole 'nother thing for the passengers.



If I were trying to stretch a flight and even then only if I were alone,
I might consider running one dry. But I have to tell you: running a
tank dry in a Cherokee results in te longest 30 seconds of your life. I
ran a C-210 tank dry once and almost the second I hit the boost after
switching the fuel selector I got a restart. Not so in the Cherokee...
it takes a while. A loooong while. Kind of scarey.

If you have not done so, please read his article and see what you think. I
must say, my impression of your position is one of fear not one of reason.
Am I wrong?


Yes. I've run tanks dry many times in both high and low wing airplanes. It
doesn't bother me especially except in rough IFR when my hands are already busy.


I must admit, I certainly would not expect something like a 30-second
delay. I would expect something more in line of a couple of seconds at
most. Perhaps it was a could of seconds but felt like 30?


No, perhaps it was 30 seconds. Go run a tank dry in a PA-32R and tell me how
long it takes to restart. If you want a 2 second restart, fly a Cessna single.

Come back and question me again after you've actually done this.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

On my Super Viking I routinely ran the Aux tanks dry... I ran a timer
so I knew within a few minutes when it would happen... The engine would
begin to lose power and I would switch tanks and hit the boost pump...
Usually did not get an engine stoppage... If I was a bit slow on the
switch the engine might stop running but relight within a few seconds
of the tank change.. On my Apache I run the tank(s) dry about once a
year to clean them out (and I usually stick a mirror in them before
refilling)...
Now, running a tank dry and running out of fuel are two different
critters... I do not allow the fuel on the Apache to go below 1 hour (6
hours total capacity) for any reason...

denny

The ACS magazine this month mentions sometimes 2-3 minutes to restart a
Comanche engine after running a tank dry. They don't recommend doing
it...

On 2005-08-19, Paul kgyy wrote:
The ACS magazine this month mentions sometimes 2-3 minutes to restart a
Comanche engine after running a tank dry. They don't recommend doing
it...

Not borne out by experience, though. A friend of mine would routinely
run a tank dry in his Comanche - when he did it with me on board, the
engine caught immediately when the tank was changed. It may as well have
been a high wing Cessna single.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"