Glider down near Reno - pilot OK

In article KjUbf.17639$i%.17534@fed1read07,
Greg Arnold wrote:

Please excuse this stupid question from a non-power pilot who knows
little about IFR instruments -- apart from the absence of information
about pitch, is there any difference between the display of the TruTrak
and the display of an artificial horizon?

No. An artificial horizon just makes the information easier to
interpret becuase you can see the little aeroplane and the blue sky and
brown ground.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

I would think that would be a yes. Art horizion shows pitch and roll,
turn and bank shows roll and slip/skid only

"Bruce Hoult" wrote in message news:bruce-

No. An artificial horizon just makes the information easier to
interpret becuase you can see the little aeroplane and the blue sky and
brown ground.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

Actually, the TruTrac display is more similar to an artificial horizon than
it is to a turn coordinator or needle and ball. The TruTrac has blue sky /
brown earth and a pictoral airplane (like a turn coordinator). When banked
over, the little airplane stays stationary and the horizon line rotates so
that it mimics the real horizon outside. It is actually a very intuitive
display to fly. I find it easier than a TC or needle and ball.

bumper

In article , "bumper"
wrote:

"Bruce Hoult" wrote in message news:bruce-

No. An artificial horizon just makes the information easier to
interpret becuase you can see the little aeroplane and the blue sky and
brown ground.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

Actually, the TruTrac display is more similar to an artificial horizon than
it is to a turn coordinator or needle and ball. The TruTrac has blue sky /
brown earth and a pictoral airplane (like a turn coordinator). When banked
over, the little airplane stays stationary and the horizon line rotates so
that it mimics the real horizon outside. It is actually a very intuitive
display to fly. I find it easier than a TC or needle and ball.

Ohh, that's not bad.

And at only a little over twice the price, their ADI migth be worth it
too, if it's sensitive enough in pitch for a glider.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Don't delude yourself by thinking that going IFC at red line in the
Sierra Wave with just a turn and bank is anything like a Microsoft
flight simulator with a partial panel or an instrument flight in a
small plane with a partial panel and an instructor.

About once or twice a year, I find myself in the happy
situation of being at the end of a flight and having 10,000'
or more to kill off before landing. About 5 times I have
used this altitude to try the benign spiral mode in my
Ventus. Full trim back, full negative flaps, brakes fully
open and hands and feet off the controls seems to be
reasonably balanced. I've entered at speeds up to 90 knots,
and have always lost 8,000 or more before having to take
control for landing. I've never seen excess G's, but I've
never been in extreme wave conditions during these tests and
I've never tried this by entering from extreme high speeds
as one might be experiencing attempting to move out from IMC
wave conditions. I have seen some 1/2- 1.5 g excursions,
but bank has always remained within 45 degrees.

I wonder if anyone else has tried this in a modern glider
and wants to report their experience.
--
T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

I'd not want to rely on a benign spiral or spinning to exit IMC.

Spinning might get you safely through a cloud deck, if the spin is initiated
before going IMC and the ship will stay in a spin. I haven't tried spinning
my 26e, as the POH doesn't allow it - - thus it probably stays in a spin
nicely. Recovering from the spin might be less nice. Trying to enter a spin
after going IMC and with no gyro reference would be a crap-shoot - - how do
you initiate a spin when you don't know which way is which way?

I'd hate to rely on a benign spiral if there was anything but glass smooth
air. The few times I've tried a benign spiral, it didn't stay benign for
long.

bumper

I've tried benign spiral in my '26E and with gear down, spoilers open
and flaps at zero, it pretty much behaved nicely.

HOWEVER, this was always done from speeds below 100 KIAS.

I suspect Erik was pushing VNE just before getting engulfed, as he may
have been trying to outrun it. At these speeds, there's no time to
stabilize into the benign spiral. A slight twitch of the wrist could
be all it takes to change airspeed +/- 20-30 knots.

I might try the spiral if a cloud deck closed under me and I had time
to establish it. But I think these wave flights are truly pushing the
limits of aircraft and pilot. Simple things you and I might try could
result in nasty consequences.

MB has it right, these guys are really pushing the limits just as the
X-plane programs of the early 1950's.

-Tom

Todd:

Cindy and Marty at Caracole have demonstrated the benign spiral to me in
both the K-21 and the Duo-Discus. It works in my LAK-17 (15m) at zero flap
with the trim 1/3 aft (wheel in or out) although, like you, I've never tried
it from near redline or from a spiral dive. It needs to be practiced, both
to see that it works in your airplane and, recurrently, so that you really
do (hopefully) stay off the controls in an actual emergency.

Caracole routinely performs the benign spiral as a training exercise, so
that their students and BFR candidates can experience it. Perhaps either
Cindy or Marty could be enticed into joining this thread as they know much
more about this and wave flying in general than I do and have given
considerable thought to emergency procedures. They provide serious mountain
wave training BTW, IMHO a VERY good idea before venturing into the awesome
world of the wave.

Raphael Warshaw
1LK




"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Don't delude yourself by thinking that going IFC at red line in the
Sierra Wave with just a turn and bank is anything like a Microsoft
flight simulator with a partial panel or an instrument flight in a
small plane with a partial panel and an instructor.

About once or twice a year, I find myself in the happy
situation of being at the end of a flight and having 10,000'
or more to kill off before landing. About 5 times I have
used this altitude to try the benign spiral mode in my
Ventus. Full trim back, full negative flaps, brakes fully
open and hands and feet off the controls seems to be
reasonably balanced. I've entered at speeds up to 90 knots,
and have always lost 8,000 or more before having to take
control for landing. I've never seen excess G's, but I've
never been in extreme wave conditions during these tests and
I've never tried this by entering from extreme high speeds
as one might be experiencing attempting to move out from IMC
wave conditions. I have seen some 1/2- 1.5 g excursions,
but bank has always remained within 45 degrees.

I wonder if anyone else has tried this in a modern glider
and wants to report their experience.
--
T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

At 09:12 08 November 2005, Bruce Hoult wrote:
In article , 'bumper'
wrote:

'Bruce Hoult' wrote in message news:bruce-

No. An artificial horizon just makes the information
easier to
interpret becuase you can see the little aeroplane
and the blue sky
a
Ohh, that's not bad.

And at only a little over twice the price, their ADI
migth be worth it
too, if it's sensitive enough in pitch for a glider.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------
I find it hard to believe that any AI would have saved
our intrepid pilot
from pulling the wings off. Like most of the glider
panels that I have
seen, room for a 3 inch instrument is most likely out
of the question and
the 2 inch verity would give you enough information
to get out of a cloud
if you were at thermaling speeds, not redline. I’m
sure most of you have
been close to redline in VFR even with instant feedback
you still were
very smooth on the stick. Now put yourself in his
shoes…… Stay out of
the clouds.

This is one thing that I would NOT recommend practicing.
Chuck

wrote:

What about pitch? Wings don't generally break off because of turning.

Oh yes they do.

The classic way of "losing it" in cloud without instruments is to get into a
turn (which is going to happen anyway- try letting go of the stick and
watch it happen); at constant trim the speed goes up (which is why we trim
back in thermals). Pulling back on the stick simply puts you into an
ever-tightening spiral dive; the only way out is to straighten up.....- but
without instruments you don't know which way you are turning.

Anyone who has flown in cloud on partial panel will tell you that if you are
trimmed out and can hold the wings level or at a steady, moderate angle of
bank the asi needs very little attention.
--
Real name is richard

wrote:
turn and bank shows roll and slip/skid only

AFAIK, T/B shows the yaw rate, i.e., the angular velocity of the
aircraft about the yaw axis. In some installations, the axis may be a
bit skewed to also include a little of the pitch rate.

Now for any stationary turn, there is an obvious correlation between the
yaw rate and the bank angle. BUT, they are not identical for dynamic
manoeuvres. E.g., in an absolutely precisely flown 360-degree roll, there
is no yaw rate at all while bank angle goes through the entire range.

-Gerhard
--
Gerhard Wesp
Zuerich, Switzerland