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#21
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FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:03:36 -0700, Newps wrote
in :: He has to either terminate you in time for you to make contact with the class C or hand you off. Please cite the pertinent part of FAA Order 7110.65 that supports your allegation with regard to ARTTC providing Radar Traffic Advisory Services to VFR flight. Would that be 2-1-16 or 2-1-17? (FAAO 7110.65, 2.1.16 previously cited in Message-ID: of this message thread.) Chapter 2. General Control Section 1. General 2-1-17. RADIO COMMUNICATIONS TRANSFER a. Transfer radio communications before an aircraft enters the receiving controller's area of jurisdiction unless otherwise coordinated or specified by a letter of agreement or a facility directive. b. Transfer radio communications by specifying the following: NOTE - Radio communications transfer procedures may be specified by a letter of agreement or contained in the route description of an MTR as published in the DOD Planning AP/1B (AP/3). 1. The facility name or location name and terminal function to be contacted. TERMINAL: Omit the location name when transferring communications to another controller within your facility; except when instructing the aircraft to change frequency for final approach guidance include the name of the facility. 2. Frequency to use except the following may be omitted: (a) FSS frequency. (b) Departure frequency if previously given or published on a DP chart for the procedure issued. (c) TERMINAL: (1) Ground or local control frequency if in your opinion the pilot knows which frequency is in use. (2) The numbers preceding the decimal point if the ground control frequency is in the 121 MHz bandwidth. EXAMPLE - ``Contact Tower.'' ``Contact Ground.'' ``Contact Ground Point Seven.'' ``Contact Ground, One Two Zero Point Eight.'' ``Contact Huntington Radio.'' ``Contact Departure.'' ``Contact Los Angeles Center, One Two Three Point Four.'' 3. Time, fix, altitude, or specifically when to contact a facility. You may omit this when compliance is expected upon receipt. NOTE - AIM, para 5-3-1, ARTCC COMMUNICATIONS, informs pilots that they are expected to maintain a listening watch on the transferring controller's frequency until the time, fix, or altitude specified. PHRASEOLOGY - CONTACT (facility name or location name and terminal function), (frequency). If required, AT (time, fix, or altitude). c. In situations where an operational advantage will be gained, and following coordination with the receiving controller, you may instruct aircraft on the ground to monitor the receiving controller's frequency. EXAMPLE - ``Monitor Tower.'' ``Monitor Ground.'' ``Monitor Ground Point Seven.'' ``Monitor Ground, One Two Zero Point Eight.'' d. In situations where a sector has multiple frequencies or when sectors are combined using multiple frequencies and the aircraft will remain under your jurisdiction, transfer radio communication by specifying the following: PHRASEOLOGY - (Identification) CHANGE TO MY FREQUENCY (state frequency). EXAMPLE - ``United two twenty-two change to my frequency one two three point four.'' REFERENCE - AIM, CONTACT PROCEDURES, Para 4-2-3. e. Avoid issuing a frequency change to helicopters known to be single-piloted during air-taxiing, hovering, or low-level flight. Whenever possible, relay necessary control instructions until the pilot is able to change frequency. NOTE - Most light helicopters are flown by one pilot and require the constant use of both hands and feet to maintain control. Although Flight Control Friction Devices assist the pilot, changing frequency near the ground could result in inadvertent ground contact and consequent loss of control. Pilots are expected to advise ATC of their single-pilot status if unable to comply with a frequency change. REFERENCE - AIM, COMMUNICATIONS, Para 4-3-14. f. In situations where the controller does not want the pilot to change frequency but the pilot is expecting or may want a frequency change, use the following phraseology. PHRASEOLOGY - REMAIN THIS FREQUENCY. REFERENCE - FAAO 7110.65, CLEARANCE INFORMATION, Para 4-7-1. FAAO 7110.65, COMMUNICATION TRANSFER, Para 5-12-8. |
#22
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FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:50:01 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote in :: I didn't think one needed permission to change freqs (or anything else for that matter) while receiving flight following. Aeronautical Information Manual http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0401.html#4-1-14 2. When receiving VFR radar advisory service, pilots should monitor the assigned frequency at all times. This is to preclude controllers' concern for radio failure or emergency assistance to aircraft under the controller's jurisdiction. VFR radar advisory service does not include vectors away from conflicting traffic unless requested by the pilot. When advisory service is no longer desired, advise the controller before changing frequencies and then change your transponder code to 1200, if applicable. Pilots should also inform the controller when changing VFR cruising altitude. Except in programs where radar service is automatically terminated, the controller will advise the aircraft when radar is terminated. |
#23
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FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article
In article .com,
"Mike Granby" wrote: I guess the question is whether a controller's failure to comply with .65 in any way effects a VFR pilot's reponsbility to comply with 91.130. The pilot is complying with 91.130 if he's talking to Center. I don't see where the FARs nor the AIM specifies that "ATC" is defined as the Class C ATC facility. The Centers "own" all of the airspace and delegate via LOA or other arrangement to the facilities that make up Class B, C, D, etc. The real question is how the LOAs are structured, and pilots cannot be expected to know the details of the LOAs. Thus, the controllers are required to do the hand-off or terminate. I hardly see how a pilot is in a position to question whether ATC has the authority to give him the clearance or instruction that ATC issues. JKG |
#24
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FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article
I don't see where the FARs nor the AIM specifies that "ATC" is defined as the Class C ATC facility. The depends on whether you think the use of the definite article is relevant or simply an accident of drafting. |
#25
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FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article
In article . com,
"Mike Granby" wrote: I don't see where the FARs nor the AIM specifies that "ATC" is defined as the Class C ATC facility. The depends on whether you think the use of the definite article is relevant or simply an accident of drafting. It's a stretch to interpret "the" as referring to something that isn't stated. JKG |
#26
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FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article
On 8 Feb 2006 14:05:06 -0800, "Mike Granby" wrote:
Concerening arrival and flight through Class C airspace... 91.130(c)(1) Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility [...] providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace. Note the use of "THE" in reference to the ATC facility to which one has to talk. Does this mean THE specific ATC facility controlling the Class C airspace? Or just the ATC facility providing services to you at the time? In other words, if you blunder into Class C while talking to Center on VFR advisories, either perhaps because they forgot to hand you off or because you wandered off altitude and they didn't notice, would you be ok, or would you be busted? Mike, My recollection, which may be incorrect, is that this was a change from the original wording specifically designed to ensure that the entering pilot would be talking with the ATC facility actually controlling the Class C airspace. In the original proposal establishing CCA, I don't believe that requirement was present -- only that the pilot be talking with ATC. I also seem to recall AOPA being against the change, feeling that if the pilot was talking with any ATC facility, it should be the responsibility of that facility to coordinate the CCA entry. AOPA lost that fight. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#27
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FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article
Perhaps. I've written a letter to the FAA asking for clarification which I shall mail tomorrow. I won't be holding my breath, though. |
#28
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FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article
I was approaching Rockford frome the north and apparently nicked the
very edge of Janeville Class D while talking to Rockford Approach the whole time and Rockford jumped all over me about it. There is something weird going on with those two. Yeah, there was something odd going on all over the upper Midwest that day. Usually, each approach control seamlessly hands us off on our frequent flights to Wisconsin. This time, Cedar Rapids cut us off as we approached the Mississippi (this NEVER, ever happens with CID), and we had to ask for a hand-off to Chicago Center. He cheerfully (they are always great at CID) did this, but then Chicago Center handed us off to Rockford -- who wouldn't hand us off to Madison. Then Madison cut us off without handing us off to Milwaukee. Very odd, indeed -- it's usually a seamless thing between all but Milwaukee, who apparently never accept hand-offs from anyone. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#29
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FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article
"Mike Granby" wrote in message ps.com... Concerening arrival and flight through Class C airspace... 91.130(c)(1) Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility [...] providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace. Note the use of "THE" in reference to the ATC facility to which one has to talk. Does this mean THE specific ATC facility controlling the Class C airspace? Or just the ATC facility providing services to you at the time? In other words, if you blunder into Class C while talking to Center on VFR advisories, either perhaps because they forgot to hand you off or because you wandered off altitude and they didn't notice, would you be ok, or would you be busted? It means the ATC facility controlling the Class C airspace. Airspace delegated to approach control facilities tends to be significantly larger than the Class C airspace contained within it. While Class C airspace has a radius of ten miles around the airport the airspace "owned" by the TRACON is probably at least thirty miles radius. If you're still on Center frequency as you approach a Class C boundary it's because Center forgot about you or you missed a frequency change. |
#30
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FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article
"Larry Dighera" wrote in message ... If the ARTTC is not providing Approach Control services to the airport is probably not coordinating arrivals with the tower. (Of course, this all presumes VFR operation.) Nor would the ARTCC be providing required Class C services; sequencing of all aircraft to the primary airport and separation from IFR aircraft. |
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