The SSA-OLC

Paul Remde a écrit :

I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC. I
also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on the
OLC.

The bad guys in this are the pilots that submitted flights that break FARs.

What about the pilots that flew 5' after sunset and did not submit their
flights ? Are them not bad guys too ? Do you imply that anyone may break
any FAR's provided that they don't publish their flights ?

And what about some posters that confessed here that they've happened to
fly after the sunset without lights ? Why don't you ask them to cancel
their posts, and/or forward their posts to the FAA in order to prosecute
them ?


--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Hi Denis,

I don't get your point. I recommend that all soaring pilots follow the
FARs, or the rules for their country - regardless of whether or not they
plan to submit the flights. However, when they do break the FARs (on
purpose or by accident), then it would be unsportsmanlike to submit the
flight.

Paul Remde

"Denis" wrote in message
...
Paul Remde a écrit :

I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC.
I also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on
the OLC.

The bad guys in this are the pilots that submitted flights that break
FARs.

What about the pilots that flew 5' after sunset and did not submit their
flights ? Are them not bad guys too ? Do you imply that anyone may break
any FAR's provided that they don't publish their flights ?

And what about some posters that confessed here that they've happened to
fly after the sunset without lights ? Why don't you ask them to cancel
their posts, and/or forward their posts to the FAA in order to prosecute
them ?


--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Paul Remde a écrit :
Hi Denis,

I don't get your point. I recommend that all soaring pilots follow the
FARs, or the rules for their country - regardless of whether or not they
plan to submit the flights. However, when they do break the FARs (on
purpose or by accident), then it would be unsportsmanlike to submit the
flight.

I understand that flights logs which enter class A airspace should not
be filed* (unless there has been a ATC clearance). But I find strange to
put that rule of lights between sunset and sunset + 30' on the same
level than entering heavy croaded class A airspace...

*although it is the case of most flights filed in another OLC country -
but that's another debate

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Denis wrote:
Paul Remde a écrit :

I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC. I
also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on the
OLC.

The bad guys in this are the pilots that submitted flights that break FARs.

What about the pilots that flew 5' after sunset and did not submit their
flights ? Are them not bad guys too ? Do you imply that anyone may break
any FAR's provided that they don't publish their flights ?

And what about some posters that confessed here that they've happened to
fly after the sunset without lights ? Why don't you ask them to cancel
their posts, and/or forward their posts to the FAA in order to prosecute
them ?

If we ask a pilot to remove a flight claim, we are trying to help them
recognize their mistake. It's called self-policing, not a police
action. We are looking to avoide outside scrutiny, not encourage it.

Making a mistake is a bad thing. Adults recognize this, and take
responsibility for their mistakes. Trying to deflect blame is not adult
behavior, it's what children do.

So if you bust a reg, that's bad. But if you brag about it, that's
worse.

Paul Remde wrote:

- The SSA and the SSA-OLC committee has never helped the FAA come after
anyone. The SSA-OLC committee has had reports sent to us of flights ending
after dark or at altitudes that break FARs. The pilots that made the
reports thought the flights were not very sporting, not fair competition,
and worse, could make all other glider pilots look bad. The SSA-OLC
committee then did its job and asked the pilots to remove the flights from
this public forum. The SSA-OLC committee (I'm on it) would prefer to never
have to do that.

Paul,
First of all, I am sorry that you find this thread so useless.I was
trying to get some insight from a very active user group, and not start
another flame fest like the "Sunset" thread.If you could humor my
useless opinion here, I would like to explain my original post.
First, I did not mean to say that it is wrong to remove posts to OLC
where there have been flagerant disregard of FARs.What I took issue
with was the SSA memo on the OLC portion of their website.Imagine if
you will, a memo like this being posted on the AOPA website.My guess is
that AOPA members would storm the headquarters in Maryland (Or wherever
they are).I would rather see the SSA use this goodwill they have with
the feds to mitigate any enforcement action.Judging by Toms post, this
is hopefully the case.It wouldnt hurt the SSA to change the wording of
this memo.
Second, and this is in reference to the "OLC Sunset Warning" on the SSA
website.If we can put the "sunset" part of that memo to bed and just
deal with the altitude portion for a minute, it is clear that the guy
who wrote it doesnt have much of an understanding of this issue and how
the Feds interpret it.I use a Cambridge model 20 with version 6.0 and
this reports both GPS and pressure altitudes.I have never flown my ship
above 17300 feet, and yet on days with a low altimeter, my box has
shown on or about 18K.Now of course this is not a safety issue because
ATC will not assign FL180 to IFR traffic on days with low pressure, but
I dont like the thought of having to explain this to the guy that typed
the "Sunset" memo.
Another concern is the lateral part of the box.I use Aero Explorer 1.1
(and I am not very good with any of this stuff yet), and I do not have
any type of map feature.All of the turn points are just dots on a white
backround and there is no reference to any airspace.What would happen
if you flew across a TFR (Inavertantly of course) or something and the
Feds wanted to see the flight log?Would the SSA cheerfully hand it
over?
Now the main gist of my post Paul, was that I am amazed amount of
infighting on R.A.S. over the SSA-OLC.I thought it would be prudent to
post straight to the OLC in Germany and forgo all of this.
K Urban

KM wrote:
I use a Cambridge model 20 with version 6.0 and
this reports both GPS and pressure altitudes.I have never flown my ship
above 17300 feet, and yet on days with a low altimeter, my box has
shown on or about 18K.Now of course this is not a safety issue because
ATC will not assign FL180 to IFR traffic on days with low pressure, but
I dont like the thought of having to explain this to the guy that typed
the "Sunset" memo.

You won't have anything to explain, because you didn't bust 18,000' msl.
Your logger records pressure altitude and GPS altitude, but _not_ msl
altitude (what your altimeter reads). The pressure altitude from the
logger file must be corrected for the barometric pressure during the
flight to determine your altitude, and this will show you were at 17,300
(for the flight mentioned).

Another concern is the lateral part of the box.I use Aero Explorer 1.1
(and I am not very good with any of this stuff yet), and I do not have
any type of map feature.All of the turn points are just dots on a white
backround and there is no reference to any airspace.What would happen
if you flew across a TFR (Inavertantly of course) or something and the
Feds wanted to see the flight log? Would the SSA cheerfully hand it
over?

They wouldn't have to, because YOU posted it to the OLC, and the FAA
could simply download it like any other person visiting the site. If you
were lucky, the airspace violation would be notice and reported by
someone in time for you to remove the flight before the Feds noticed it.

Now the main gist of my post Paul, was that I am amazed amount of
infighting on R.A.S. over the SSA-OLC.I thought it would be prudent to
post straight to the OLC in Germany and forgo all of this.

The controversy here doesn't affect the big majority of OLC posters, who
don't even know there is any controversy unless they read it here. It's
too bad your introduction to the OLC started during this period - in
this case, ignorance would be bliss. As a pilot that intends to fly with
careful attention to the regs, none of this is pertinent to you, so if
you find it upsetting instead of interesting or educational, I hope you
will just ignore the thread.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Paul, with the greatest respect, you are wrong here. I do not fly in
the US but my pursuit of this issue is because I was a professional
pilot for most of my life and your attitude is quite unacceptable. You
and Doug seem to be almost deliberately obtuse in failing to see the
basic point:

It is NO PLACE of the SSA or any of its affiliates to decide whether a
breach of FARs has occurred. You have no operational enforcement role.
WRT the FARs you are just a bunch of vigilante busybodies.

Yet you continually make yourself judge and jury:
...many pilots that would never submit a flight that includes
an obvious FAR breach...

...The SSA-OLC committee has had reports sent to us of
flights ending after dark or at altitudes that break FARs...

...I am OK with the SSA-OLC committee asking pilots to remove
flights that break FARs...

...The bad guys in this are the pilots that submitted
flights that break FARs...

...I also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post
their flights...

If you agree that flights that break FARs should not be
on the OLC, please say so here....

This is NOT your role and the many professional pilots who are SSA
members will be unhappy if you start moving in on the FAA's territory.
The licence YOU use to fly a glider for fun is the licence THEY use to
earn a living.

In a mealy-mouthed attempt to have it both ways, you accept that the SSA
and your Committee are committed to stirring up FAA action against those
you decide have breached FARs but begin your post by saying "The SSA and
the SSA-OLC committee has never helped the FAA come after anyone".

....Yet.

In most parts of the world this vigilantism would be seen as completely
unlawful and improper but I guess the US has different traditions and it
does seem to be a matter for debate in your country. You might notice
you're getting no support for your stance from the home of the OLC and
its neighbours.

The SSA has a perfect right to make whatever rules it likes for SSA-OLC
flights and to promulgate them as the rules for its competition but the
SSA (and, by extension, its OLC sub-committee) have no operational
responsibilities and is not in the business of saying that a flight is
in breach of FARs.

As I said in an earlier post, you do not even have the data to say that
a breach of FARs has occurred. A logger trace is only an official
record in your private competition. The real evidence for an SUA
boundary breach or 18000ft altitude exceedance or whether the glider
flew after sunset without lights is simply not available to you. Your
witch hunt is so important though that you want to reverse the onus of
proof and demand that anybody who YOU think MAY have breached FARs
should justify why they HAVEN'T.

Finally, It IS clear from your posts that the breach of FARs is not what
upsets you, it's the apparent unfair advantage you see some as getting
that really riles you. The previous poster ("KM")is correct - the US is
significantly more competitive about the OLC than it's originators
intended and your interpretation of Reiner's comment seems quite unlikely.

The solution to your problem is simple. you're on the SSA-OLC
committee. Make your own rules and declare the logger trace to be
evidence of a breach of YOUR RULES. Publish the rules AS THE RULES OF
YOUR COMP. Stop hiding behind FARs.

GC

Paul Remde wrote:

is discouraged.So this begs the question that if a pilot is not out to
win, why even post a flight on the SSA-OLC? How did the SSA get a
monopoly on the OLC in the US, and why did they change its intent?
Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo
regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or
enforce FARs" and yet it ends with a statement that the SSA will
partner with the FAA to go after any pilot who violates the regs.This
same kind of mentality is expressed on the "OLC Sunset Warning"
elsewhere on the site.Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I
have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety
standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does
something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to
HELPING the FAA come after me?

- The SSA and the SSA-OLC committee has never helped the FAA come after
anyone. The SSA-OLC committee has had reports sent to us of flights ending
after dark or at altitudes that break FARs. The pilots that made the
reports thought the flights were not very sporting, not fair competition,
and worse, could make all other glider pilots look bad. The SSA-OLC
committee then did its job and asked the pilots to remove the flights from
this public forum. The SSA-OLC committee (I'm on it) would prefer to never
have to do that.

I think this forum is interesting because, in my opinion, the many pilots
that would never submit a flight that includes an obvious FAR breach are not
speaking up. They are tired of hearing the few outspoken pilots the seem to
be OK with pilots submitting flights that breach FARs. The silent majority
is hesitant to post their thoughts because they fear that the outspoken ones
will rip them appart for their opinon.

I for one am a big fan of the OLC. I am OK with the SSA-OLC committee
asking pilots to remove flights that break FARs. So should every glider
pilot that wants to keep the priveledge of using US airspace. The SSA-OLC
committee shoudn't need to ask the pilots to remove the flight logs that
break FARs, but if necessary, they will. The SSA-OLC committee does NOT go
looking for flights like that. They only look at flights that are brought
to their attention.

I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC. I
also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on the
OLC.


Worse yet are the pilots that would not remove them when asked. They are
the ones taking the fun out of the OLC, not the SSA-OLC committee. They are
trying to make the SSA-OLC committee into the bad guys here. They are
shouting loudly and trying to mis-direct everyone. It makes me sick how
they are ruining such a great thing.

Silent majority, please speak up. If you agree that flights that break FARs
should not be on the OLC, please say so here.

Paul Remde

Bizarre
I have a backround as a check airman and safety inspector, and we
looked at rules violations from a standpoint of education and
prevention, not the punitive standpoint the SSA has.
So in conclusion, I was hoping the list members could field a couple of
questions, First, if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?
And two, is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?
Thanks,
K. Urban

Hi Graeme,

The SSA-OLC committee is not out to get anyone or so send anything to the
FAA.

This is not a witch hunt.

You are correct that I miss your point. Or perhaps I just disagree with
you.

What really bugs me about this entire thing is that most pilots would never
intentionally post a flight that could get them in trouble, or make other
glider pilots look bad. It makes me very sad that a few pilots seem to want
to make all glider pilots look bad. It also makes me very sad that this
thread can't just be dropped because it is hurting the OLC and discouraging
cross-country flying.

Paul Remde


"Graeme Cant" gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote in message
...
Paul, with the greatest respect, you are wrong here. I do not fly in the
US but my pursuit of this issue is because I was a professional pilot for
most of my life and your attitude is quite unacceptable. You and Doug
seem to be almost deliberately obtuse in failing to see the basic point:

It is NO PLACE of the SSA or any of its affiliates to decide whether a
breach of FARs has occurred. You have no operational enforcement role.
WRT the FARs you are just a bunch of vigilante busybodies.

Yet you continually make yourself judge and jury:
...many pilots that would never submit a flight that includes
an obvious FAR breach...

...The SSA-OLC committee has had reports sent to us of
flights ending after dark or at altitudes that break FARs...

...I am OK with the SSA-OLC committee asking pilots to remove
flights that break FARs...

...The bad guys in this are the pilots that submitted
flights that break FARs...

...I also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post
their flights...

If you agree that flights that break FARs should not be
on the OLC, please say so here....

This is NOT your role and the many professional pilots who are SSA members
will be unhappy if you start moving in on the FAA's territory. The licence
YOU use to fly a glider for fun is the licence THEY use to earn a living.

In a mealy-mouthed attempt to have it both ways, you accept that the SSA
and your Committee are committed to stirring up FAA action against those
you decide have breached FARs but begin your post by saying "The SSA and
the SSA-OLC committee has never helped the FAA come after anyone".

...Yet.

In most parts of the world this vigilantism would be seen as completely
unlawful and improper but I guess the US has different traditions and it
does seem to be a matter for debate in your country. You might notice
you're getting no support for your stance from the home of the OLC and its
neighbours.

The SSA has a perfect right to make whatever rules it likes for SSA-OLC
flights and to promulgate them as the rules for its competition but the
SSA (and, by extension, its OLC sub-committee) have no operational
responsibilities and is not in the business of saying that a flight is in
breach of FARs.

As I said in an earlier post, you do not even have the data to say that a
breach of FARs has occurred. A logger trace is only an official record in
your private competition. The real evidence for an SUA boundary breach or
18000ft altitude exceedance or whether the glider flew after sunset
without lights is simply not available to you. Your witch hunt is so
important though that you want to reverse the onus of proof and demand
that anybody who YOU think MAY have breached FARs should justify why they
HAVEN'T.

Finally, It IS clear from your posts that the breach of FARs is not what
upsets you, it's the apparent unfair advantage you see some as getting
that really riles you. The previous poster ("KM")is correct - the US is
significantly more competitive about the OLC than it's originators
intended and your interpretation of Reiner's comment seems quite unlikely.

The solution to your problem is simple. you're on the SSA-OLC committee.
Make your own rules and declare the logger trace to be evidence of a
breach of YOUR RULES. Publish the rules AS THE RULES OF YOUR COMP. Stop
hiding behind FARs.

GC

Paul Remde wrote:

is discouraged.So this begs the question that if a pilot is not out to
win, why even post a flight on the SSA-OLC? How did the SSA get a
monopoly on the OLC in the US, and why did they change its intent?
Another thing I found during my research on the SSA website was a memo
regarding FARs.It started out with "The SSA is not out to interpret or
enforce FARs" and yet it ends with a statement that the SSA will
partner with the FAA to go after any pilot who violates the regs.This
same kind of mentality is expressed on the "OLC Sunset Warning"
elsewhere on the site.Now let me state that I fly for a living, and I
have every motivation BOTH from a monitary standpoint and a safety
standpoint to follow the regs, but lets say my flight recorder does
something stupid and now I have the same outfit that I pay dues to
HELPING the FAA come after me?

- The SSA and the SSA-OLC committee has never helped the FAA come after
anyone. The SSA-OLC committee has had reports sent to us of flights
ending after dark or at altitudes that break FARs. The pilots that made
the reports thought the flights were not very sporting, not fair
competition, and worse, could make all other glider pilots look bad. The
SSA-OLC committee then did its job and asked the pilots to remove the
flights from this public forum. The SSA-OLC committee (I'm on it) would
prefer to never have to do that.

I think this forum is interesting because, in my opinion, the many pilots
that would never submit a flight that includes an obvious FAR breach are
not speaking up. They are tired of hearing the few outspoken pilots the
seem to be OK with pilots submitting flights that breach FARs. The
silent majority is hesitant to post their thoughts because they fear that
the outspoken ones will rip them appart for their opinon.

I for one am a big fan of the OLC. I am OK with the SSA-OLC committee
asking pilots to remove flights that break FARs. So should every glider
pilot that wants to keep the priveledge of using US airspace. The
SSA-OLC committee shoudn't need to ask the pilots to remove the flight
logs that break FARs, but if necessary, they will. The SSA-OLC committee
does NOT go looking for flights like that. They only look at flights
that are brought to their attention.

I hope most glider pilots will continue to post their flights to the OLC.
I also hope that pilots that break FARs will NOT post their flights on
the OLC.


Worse yet are the pilots that would not remove them when asked. They are
the ones taking the fun out of the OLC, not the SSA-OLC committee. They
are trying to make the SSA-OLC committee into the bad guys here. They
are shouting loudly and trying to mis-direct everyone. It makes me sick
how they are ruining such a great thing.

Silent majority, please speak up. If you agree that flights that break
FARs should not be on the OLC, please say so here.

Paul Remde

Bizarre
I have a backround as a check airman and safety inspector, and we
looked at rules violations from a standpoint of education and
prevention, not the punitive standpoint the SSA has.
So in conclusion, I was hoping the list members could field a couple of
questions, First, if a pilot were to post an ocasional short flight,
say 2 to 3 hundred miles about once a week, is he gonna get laughed at?
And two, is there a way to bypass the SSA-OLC (and forgo all the
politics and flaming), and just post to the OLC in Germany?
Thanks,
K. Urban

This "making us look bad" argument seems highly theoretical. How many
people outside the gliding community actually download and look in
detail at OLC flight logs? My guess is approximately zero. I think
we're flattering ourselves to think otherwise. We are inventing
imaginary demons to scare ourselves with.

wrote:
This "making us look bad" argument seems highly theoretical. How many
people outside the gliding community actually download and look in
detail at OLC flight logs? My guess is approximately zero. I think
we're flattering ourselves to think otherwise. We are inventing
imaginary demons to scare ourselves with.

Actually, I use the OLC a LOT when describing soaring to non sailplane
pilots. I tell them to visit there and see what can be done in a
sailplane. This is much more concrete than telling them that I
typically fly 2-300 hundred miles in a flight. The OLC provides
"proof" that many people do this, etc....

Some of these people may indeed get interested in looking at various
flights, and I really don't want them stumbling on questionable ones.
I want them so see what can and is generally done legally. I really do
think the OLC is a great way to "sell" the sport of soaring.


-Tom