Coordinated turns and the little ball

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques schrieb:

The nose will pin entering into and out of a turn if the exact amount of
complimentary rudder pressure for the amount of aileron displacement is
being used.

Once the turn is established and sustained, I see no way to check
coordination by looking at the nose.

Stefan

Copied from the post you are answering;

"The pin won't stay there long, but long enough to establish control
pressure application
quality."

Dudley Henriques

Let me add to this, that once stabilized in the turn, it is not only
possible, but advisable to monitor coordination by using physical cues
instead of watching the ball. The quality of that physical monitoring will
include a visual cue on the nose, and the physical cues sensed by the body.
The overall quality of this process will be dictated by experience. Just
because the controls have been neutralized in a stable turn doesn't mean
slip and skid are not noticeable. A good pilot will pick up on an out of
doghouse ball with no trouble at all.
Its for this reason that getting students off the ball and outside the
airplane is prime early on in flight training.
Its important to note here as well, considering the totally incorrect input
I've been seeing lately on these forums by a specific poster, that there is
a HUGE....and I'll repeat this for clarity ...HUGE difference between the
way a plane is flown in VERY conditions, and when on the gauges. The very
essence of attitude instrument training is in teaching the pilot to make
this transition from using physical sensing to NOT using physical sensing.
Finally; you teach people to fly airplanes using physical and visual cues.
This doesn't mean that instruments are not useful and shouldn't be used
while flying using these cues.
It does mean however that over concentration on using a ball for
coordination quality at the expense of stressing outside references can
deter from a student's development of the necessary physical cues needed to
become a good pilot.
Pilots need go no further in verifying the validity of what I have said here
than approaching the next airshow demonstration pilot they meet and asking
them,
"Do you check your ball even ONCE while performing?"
I already know the answer to this question :-))
Dudley Henriques

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques schrieb:

Once the turn is established and sustained, I see no way to check
coordination by looking at the nose.

"The pin won't stay there long, but long enough to establish control
pressure application
quality."

When starting the turn, you roll, which means you apply ailerons. When the
turn is established, you don't apply ailerons anymore (how much exactly
depends on the aircraft, some even require outwards ailerons to prevent
overbanking). Hence the "pressure application quality" you establish at
the beginning of the turn doesn't do you any good to stay coordinaed once
the turn is established.

Stefan

Its true that once a turn is established, control application becomes
stabilized except for any underbanking or over banking correction needed in
shallow or steep banks.

Although medium turns are more stable than shallow turns and steep turns
where underbanking and overbanking tendency has to be dealt with, if the
airplane has any slip or skid on it, its easily detected using physical and
visual sensing by a well trained pilot.
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...


in VERY conditions, (obviously should read VFR conditions :-)

Dudley Henriques schrieb:

if the airplane has any slip or skid on it,
its easily detected using physical and
visual sensing by a well trained pilot.

Now please explain me which _visual_ cues tell you an uncoordinated
_sustained_ turn.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques schrieb:

if the airplane has any slip or skid on it, its easily detected using
physical and visual sensing by a well trained pilot.

Now please explain me which _visual_ cues tell you an uncoordinated
_sustained_ turn.

Stefan

I can see by the "Now please explain to me" opening that I don't really
want to deal with this any further with you.
Lets just say that we have a difference of opinion and be done with it.
Happens all the time on Usenet :-)
Best to you,
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques schrieb:

I can see by the "Now please explain to me" opening that I don't really
want to deal with this any further with you.
Lets just say that we have a difference of opinion and be done with it.

I don't have any opinion on this at all. I just don't see which _visual_
clue could tell me that a sustained turn is uncoordinated. I was looking
forward to learn something new. Unfortunately you don't want me to learn
something new.

I wonder whether you told your students that you didn't want to deal
with them anymore, too, when they dared to ask.

Stefan

In article ,
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

You're right. The best yaw indicator in the airplane is the nose of the
airplane. Instructors should be able to pick up the slightest amount of
uncoordination simply by watching the nose.

An interesting demo is to take you feet off the rudders, look out over the
nose, and quickly roll in full left or right aileron deflection. Depending
on how much inverse yaw your particular plane has (172's do a great demo;
Cherokees less so), you will see the nose of the plane first get pulled off
to the *outside* of the turn, then as the bank angle gets established,
start to get dragged in the right direction.

"Stefan" wrote in message
. ..
Dudley Henriques schrieb:

I can see by the "Now please explain to me" opening that I don't really
want to deal with this any further with you.
Lets just say that we have a difference of opinion and be done with it.

I don't have any opinion on this at all. I just don't see which _visual_
clue could tell me that a sustained turn is uncoordinated. I was looking
forward to learn something new. Unfortunately you don't want me to learn
something new.

I wonder whether you told your students that you didn't want to deal with
them anymore, too, when they dared to ask.

Stefan

I learned a long time ago on Usenet, that if someone wants to learn
something, or even exchange a friendly dialog with someone that they might
disagree with, they don't open that "request for learning" with the phrase
"Now you tell me..........". There was a time when I would take on those who
approach me in this way, but I'm mellowing in my old age I guess. To tell
you the honest truth, I just don't care for these "engagements"any longer.
I simply avoid posters who do this with me.
As if I needed any further indication that my judgment is correct on this,
simply reference your own post above and your unsolicited responses to what
I have said.
Starting with your first post, rather than asking a question, which I assume
goes along with your "request to learn something", your posts to me have
been statements in direct opposition to what I have said. You clearly
believe that it is I who have something to learn and not you :-)
Now with this last post, you have become aggressive and accusatory.
Clearly I was right to not wish to engage you, and I will take your totally
unnecessary comment about how I might or might not have treated my students
under advisement from a bit more competent authority on the subject :-)))
Anyway, no hard feelings, and all the very best to you.
Dudley Henriques

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

You're right. The best yaw indicator in the airplane is the nose of the
airplane. Instructors should be able to pick up the slightest amount of
uncoordination simply by watching the nose.

An interesting demo is to take you feet off the rudders, look out over the
nose, and quickly roll in full left or right aileron deflection.
Depending
on how much inverse yaw your particular plane has (172's do a great demo;
Cherokees less so), you will see the nose of the plane first get pulled
off
to the *outside* of the turn, then as the bank angle gets established,
start to get dragged in the right direction.

Exactly!

Dudley

Roy Smith writes:

An interesting demo is to take you feet off the rudders, look out over the
nose, and quickly roll in full left or right aileron deflection. Depending
on how much inverse yaw your particular plane has (172's do a great demo;
Cherokees less so), you will see the nose of the plane first get pulled off
to the *outside* of the turn, then as the bank angle gets established,
start to get dragged in the right direction.

So for a turn to the right, the passengers are first shifted to the
right, and then to the left?

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