OT - Video Card Question(s)

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:48:51 GMT, john smith wrote:

I've spent five hours dinking around with this,

First time I read it I saw "I spent five hours drinking around this,..."
It sounded like an appropriate way to solve the problem.

it would also have solved the split screen issue, too. only temporarily, of
course. *g*

#m
--
Enemy Combatant http://itsnotallbad.com/

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
[...]
This Dell system "only" has a 250 watt power supply, which --
along with the AGP slot -- pretty much eliminates the "latest &
greatest" video cards, all of which need a bigger power supply and/or
require a PCI-Express expansion slot.

Compatibility with an older system like this is obviously a problem. I
tried installing an ATI X1600 today (from Worst Buy), with 512 MB
on-board, and the PC wouldn't even boot up with it installed! I
obviously had pushed my older computer past its limits.

So, I'm aiming a bit lower, and looking at the EVGA GEForce 6600LE.

You're aiming *lower* than the X1600?

Yikes.

Anyway, I will bet that your power supply is insufficient for a second card,
no matter how underpowered a card you get. 250W just isn't that much. The
P4 is cut from the power-hungry cloth that Intel used for a long time, and
it's likely you have enough other components to push power usage up close to
what the power supply is actually capable of.

Speaking of which, the total power available is likely something less than
250W, by the way. I wouldn't be surprised if Dell's 250W PS is capable of
250W peak power, but provides something less than that steady state. Even
if the power supply can do a steady 250W, the total power rating of a power
supply only provides a rough guide...you need to look at the ratings in the
individual power outputs of the supply and compare them to what they are
feeding. If you've got (for example) one "rail" putting out 30A and another
putting out 15A, trying to feed two components that require 20A each,
there's no direct way that will work. Neither component can use the 15A
rail, and the two combined exceed the 30A rail's capacity. Even though the
40A requirement is less than your theoretical 45A capacity, it actually is
greater than what the power supply is capable of.

Anyway...

At a minimum, your first step should be to upgrade the power supply. If you
expect to use that computer with two video cards, I think it's practically
guaranteed that you need a beefier power supply. If you want to keep it
simple, get something 350W or higher. If you want to do some extra legwork
and possibly buy something cheaper, then learn about how the power ratings
for individual rails on a power supply work, as well as how to determine
what rails feed what components, so that way you can see if a lower capacity
power supply would still work.

Personally, I wouldn't waste time buying a really low-end video card. Even
the X1600 is a few generations old, and going lower-end is just a waste of
time and effort, if not money. For only a little more, you can get a much
better card, even remaining down at the lower end of the performance
spectrum. I'd look at something in the X1800 range, or 6800/6900 for nVidia
chipsets, if you really must go low-end.

That said, really what you ought to be thinking about is going high-end, if
you really intend to keep using this computer for awhile. It'll cost more,
but you will get more longevity and bang for your buck. You can get an AGP
version of nVidia's 7800 chipset, or wait a few weeks and ATI will have
their X1950 on the shelves in an AGP version.

Especially given that you are using this for MSFS, and especially given that
you will only get the best 3D graphics and frame rates out of their latest
version if you are using a completely modern video card, you are cheating
yourself if you go low-end on this. Your current video card is really only
suitable for drawing the instrument panel, IMHO.

And finally, all of the above said, I have to say that I agree with Jose on
this one. The computer you're messing with sounds pretty low-end to start
with. That appears to be the reason you're aiming low-end for the video
card as well, but IMHO that's a false economy. You can get a cheap PC today
that beats the pants off your Dell for about $500. If you spend $1000 you
can get a PC that is near the high end of available performance, including
the video card. For the effort, time, and expense you've put into this
project already, you ought to just go modern all the way on the PC hardware,
ensuring that you are getting the best possible image, performance, and
flight experience from your flight simulator. (And yes, if you do wind up
doing that, you might consider getting a PC that handle a couple of video
cards, each with a couple of outputs, for that excessive multi-screen
experience ).

On the bright side, if you buy a new PC, you don't have to worry about
upgrading the power supply on the old one.

Pete

On the bright side, if you buy a new PC, you don't have to worry about
upgrading the power supply on the old one.

Good point... (Typical pilot way of approaching expenses, BTW... :-)

Up till now, I've been very proud that I've been able to build the Kiwi
largely without spending a lot of money. The PC, adjustable pilot's
seat, parts and labor to construct the "fuselage" have all been
entirely donated, which means that they cost me exactly ZERO.

Really, the only thing I've had to buy are the yoke & rudder pedals,
and various USB and power extension cords. (The Kiwi is about 20 feet
from the PC that powers it.) Well, and the projection system -- but we
already had that in-house.

The more I delve into this video problem, however, the more I see that
I'm looking at an obsolete system that can't be fixed with band-aids.
Running MS Flight Simulator X properly is going to take every ounce of
speed available in computers today, so I think I'll start looking into
a good gaming PC.

There is a local place in town (Neocomputers -- you can see 'em here at
http://www.neocomputers.com ) that is run by some good local people. I
think I'll see what they will charge to create the "ultimate" MS-FSX
gaming computer system for me.

Anyone got any other suppliers of complete "God Gaming Systems" that
they might recommend?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
[...]
There is a local place in town (Neocomputers -- you can see 'em here at
http://www.neocomputers.com ) that is run by some good local people. I
think I'll see what they will charge to create the "ultimate" MS-FSX
gaming computer system for me.

Anyone got any other suppliers of complete "God Gaming Systems" that
they might recommend?

Frankly, Dell would probably be just fine. Stick to their XPS line, or the
Alienware division they just bought. Other places you could check include
Hard Drives Northwest (www.hdnw.com) or VoodooPC (www.voodoopc.com). Both
are known for being reputable vendors of high-performance computers.

That said, if you can get a competitive price and the level of service you
know is appropriate from your local store, I'd say that's the way to go. I
wouldn't pay more than a 10-20% premium to buy local (not counting sales
tax), but as long as they aren't gouging you compared to mail-order, there's
a lot to be said for having a local vendor to provide support, especially in
those first two to four weeks as you use different elements of the PC and
discover minor (or sometimes major) problems with the hardware.

Pete

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
[...]
Anyone got any other suppliers of complete "God Gaming Systems" that
they might recommend?

Oh, an in addition to my other post, I suppose I ought to point out...

There is not actually a need to buy a "God Gaming System". The systems I
mentioned in my other post are going to be top-of-the-line, and they will
have the performance to show for it. But as with practically everything
computer related, you pay a huge premium for that last 10% of performance.
For much less money, you can get systems that are almost as good and a much
better value for the money.

And I guess as long as I'm saying *that*, I should point out that the
high-end lines usually do include a "budget" category that is still a good
performer and while not cheap, is significantly less then the really
high-end stuff. So the vendors I mention aren't necessarily to be avoided
if you don't want to spend a lot. Just shop carefully.

Pete

"Jay Honeck" wrote

Anyone got a better idea?

I've spent five hours dinking around with this, between trips to Best
Buy and time researching on-line, and I'm starting to go cross-eyed!

Jay;

The day after Thanksgiving sales are almost here. Go get in line at about
04:00, and get one of the good buys on a new computer.

It will be almost as cheap as all of the work-arounds suggested, and you will
have something that will work for a few more years.

I'll bet that running the computer you have at the maximum limits of performance
in the Kiwi will be producing a lot of heat, which is a bad thing for the life
of a computer. I'll bet you will be buying a new one within a year, anyway.

Get an extra case fan, too. Less than $15, I think.
--
Jim in NC

Hi Jay...
a noble cause...I hope to take advantage of it "someday" when Sara and
I get around to visiting.

Have you checked Tigerdirect(.com)? I noticed quite a few 'old tech'
video cards(some dual) a few weeks ago when I was looking for myself.
Make sure you dont get a 4x only card if your AGP is 2x..etc...FYI

Can your Dell take a standard replacement power supply? a
350-400W'er is not ridiculously priced...if a standard size one will
work

OR OR OR...
If you are happy with the video and PC you have, why not get an
amplified video splitter.

MCM Electronics
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...i d=83%2D8299
or
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...i d=83%2D7734
or 4-way
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...i d=83%2D7733

For about $60-100 for splitter + cables you may be able to do it
without hacking into the PC.

--Don Byrer
Don Byrer
Commercial Pilot / CFI Student
Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"I know what it sounds like....when doves cry" (Bird Strike 8/29/05)

Sorry...I guessed I missed the part about 2 different displays when I
recommended the splitter...


On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 20:13:51 -0500, Don Byrer
wrote:

Hi Jay...
a noble cause...I hope to take advantage of it "someday" when Sara and
I get around to visiting.

Have you checked Tigerdirect(.com)? I noticed quite a few 'old tech'
video cards(some dual) a few weeks ago when I was looking for myself.
Make sure you dont get a 4x only card if your AGP is 2x..etc...FYI

Can your Dell take a standard replacement power supply? a
350-400W'er is not ridiculously priced...if a standard size one will
work

OR OR OR...
If you are happy with the video and PC you have, why not get an
amplified video splitter.

MCM Electronics
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...i d=83%2D8299
or
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...i d=83%2D7734
or 4-way
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...i d=83%2D7733

For about $60-100 for splitter + cables you may be able to do it
without hacking into the PC.

--Don Byrer
Don Byrer
Commercial Pilot / CFI Student
Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"I know what it sounds like....when doves cry" (Bird Strike 8/29/05)

Don Byrer
Commercial Pilot / CFI Student
Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"I know what it sounds like....when doves cry" (Bird Strike 8/29/05)

Jay,

I may have to find time to drop in this week and see the Kiwi. I'll be
in the Iowa City area visiting relatives for the holiday. Sadly the
Pilatus will have to stay home as we're driving from Ohio. Are there
times that are better or worse to drop by on Tuesday or Wednesday?

Eric Bartsch

1959 Pilatus P-3
http://www.hometown.aol.com/bartscher/P3A848.html


On Nov 19, 8:38 am, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
Okay, this thread isn't totally off-topic, as my questions are related
to making the piloting experience more real in the sim. It's time to
upgrade the Kiwi!

(See it hehttp://alexisparkinn.com/the_kiwi_is_born.htm).

I want to add a second monitor (dedicated for the panel), and use the
104" projection screen for the "out-the-window-world-view" only. This
means that I need a video card with two video outputs. "Lesser" models
seem to have a single DVI output and a single VGA (AKA: D-Sub) output,
while "better" models have two DVI outputs.

Our flight sim PC is a Dell Optiplex GX260, Pentium 4, with a gig of
RAM -- but only an AGP slot for video card upgrade. The current card
is a Radeon 7000, with just 32 mb of on-board memory, and a single VGA
port. This Dell system "only" has a 250 watt power supply, which --
along with the AGP slot -- pretty much eliminates the "latest &
greatest" video cards, all of which need a bigger power supply and/or
require a PCI-Express expansion slot.

Compatibility with an older system like this is obviously a problem. I
tried installing an ATI X1600 today (from Worst Buy), with 512 MB
on-board, and the PC wouldn't even boot up with it installed! I
obviously had pushed my older computer past its limits.

So, I'm aiming a bit lower, and looking at the EVGA GEForce 6600LE. See
it he

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130262

It's reasonably priced, seems to have decent specs that are within the
limits of my PC, and is in-stock. Anyone have any experience with this
board? Anyone got a better idea?

I've spent five hours dinking around with this, between trips to Best
Buy and time researching on-line, and I'm starting to go cross-eyed!

Thanks,
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I may have to find time to drop in this week and see the Kiwi. I'll be
in the Iowa City area visiting relatives for the holiday. Sadly the
Pilatus will have to stay home as we're driving from Ohio. Are there
times that are better or worse to drop by on Tuesday or Wednesday?

Hi Eric --

Mary and I are taking Wed/Thu/Fri off, so if you stop by Wednesday,
you'll get to meet my small-but-dedicated staff!

And what's this "driving from Ohio" stuff all about?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"