AOPA talking rubbish

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:24:35 -0000, "Chris"
wrote in :

The US has one ATC system, Europe has nearly 40.

Isn't the fact that they are all in compliance with International
Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standards, make that a moot point?

Larry Dighera wrote:

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:24:35 -0000, "Chris"
wrote in :


The US has one ATC system, Europe has nearly 40.


Isn't the fact that they are all in compliance with International
Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standards, make that a moot point?



That helps but you are always dealing with different political systems
and cultures.
Lots of little regional differences, plus the fact that the French
controllers are always going out on one or two day strikes.

Ron Rosenfeld schrieb:

Is there a need to tell such lies?
Do you guys believe it?

I suppose it is one reason why Europe, with a population more than two and
half times that of the United States, has a fraction of the GA activity.

Which gives you the answer: Yes, there are people who believe this rubbish.

Stefan wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld schrieb:

Is there a need to tell such lies?
Do you guys believe it?


I suppose it is one reason why Europe, with a population more than two
and
half times that of the United States, has a fraction of the GA activity.


Which gives you the answer: Yes, there are people who believe this rubbish.

I've yet to see any proof that it is rubbish.

Matt

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:24:35 -0000, "Chris"
wrote in :

The US has one ATC system, Europe has nearly 40.

Isn't the fact that they are all in compliance with International
Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standards, make that a moot point?

Not at all. They may all be in compliance with ICAO but that does not stop
the airspace systems being different,

Take Class E airspace - basically none existent in the UK but as soon as you
cross the FIR into French airspace it is class E.

Our class D is treated like the US class B and we have class down to the
surface - in fact a lot of our airspace below 19000 ft is class A.

In Sweden there is no class A or B airspace.

In the UK there is no night VFR, its either SVFR in CAS or IFR. You can fly
IFR without an instrument rating as long as the conditions are VMC. This is
not allowed in France.

You only have to go through the respective AIPs to see the differences
posted by each country from the ICAO norm.

The some countries are in a customs union and some are not so travelling
from UK to France requires a stop at a customs airfield but going from
France to Germany does not. And so it goes on.

In Germany one sets 0021 on the transponder for VFR flight below 5000' and
0022 above. In the UK it is 7000.

The of course there are the aeronautical charts - all different.

And all this for a trip no further than say Albany to Boston.

On Feb 19, 2:24 pm, "Chris" wrote:


It depends what you think GA is for. The US has one ATC system, Europe has
nearly 40. Imagine if every state in the US had its own system.

As far as transportation goes mainland Europe has a really good railroad
network. So GA in the form of light aircraft is more for recreation.

Perhaps those in Europe have better things to do than play with airplanes.
For those who do want to do so, it can be affordable.- Hide quoted text -


I think it is exactly this type of argument that holds back free-
spirited civilian inventiions and ultimately a nation's progress. It
is not by coincidence that the U.S. leads the world in aviation and
space technology. If and when the first civilian space transportation
is realized, it won't be a coincidence if it first launch takes place
in the U.S. No, I am not a flag waving fanatic. There are many things
wrong with this country, but there are a few things we do right here,
and general aviation is one of them. It is unfortunate to be
witnessing its decline.

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:24:35 -0000, "Chris" wrote:





I suppose it is one reason why Europe, with a population more than two and
half times that of the United States, has a fraction of the GA activity.

It depends what you think GA is for. The US has one ATC system, Europe has
nearly 40. Imagine if every state in the US had its own system.

As far as transportation goes mainland Europe has a really good railroad
network. So GA in the form of light aircraft is more for recreation.

Perhaps those in Europe have better things to do than play with airplanes.
For those who do want to do so, it can be affordable.


What I think GA is for has little to do with how it is defined in the
statistics. It includes more than light aircraft use for recreation.

Thanks for adding a few more reasons why GA activity is so much less in
Europe. It's not only more expensive, but also less convenient and there
is more and varied bureaucracy to deal with in the form of 40 ATC systems.

And if you limit your flying, it can be affordable!

You've given me even more reasons to support the fight against adopting the
"European system" over here.
--ron

In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

Stefan wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld schrieb:

Is there a need to tell such lies?
Do you guys believe it?


I suppose it is one reason why Europe, with a population more than two
and
half times that of the United States, has a fraction of the GA activity.


Which gives you the answer: Yes, there are people who believe this rubbish.

I've yet to see any proof that it is rubbish.

Matt

I'm not sure what is being referenced as "rubbish."

Is it the AOPA alarms?
Is it the European socialist attitude towards GA?
Is it the idea that some people are not paying their "fair share" (as
defined by those making the claims)?

On 2007-02-19, Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
I suppose it is one reason why Europe, with a population more than two and
half times that of the United States, has a fraction of the GA activity.
--ron

Europe isn't nearly as homogenous as the United States in terms of
wealth. Europe (just the European Union) includes countries like Romania
and Bulgaria where just owning a *car* is a struggle - these countries
are still recovering from decades of Soviet rule and have economies
which are in a desperate condition even compared to France (let alone
the United States). If you look at Europe in a wider context than just
the EU, you end up with countries like Albania with a GDP per capita of
$5600 (compared with the GDP per capita of the United States which is
$43500 - almost 10 times higher).

You can't really think of Europe in the same terms as the fifty states
of the US. Europe is pretty disparate in both wealth and culture. It's
not like an equivalent of the US where they speak funny languages.

Even if GA in Europe had no regulation whatsoever, there would be a lot
less GA activity in Europe than in the United States.

There is some good news though - the head of EASA has said he wants to
reduce the regulatory burden on GA and see it as 'healthy as it is in
the United States'. It remains to be seen whether they will actually
implement it, but over the last 18 months they have been making the
right noises. They even listened to and accepted the responses from GA
pilots over the Single European Sky which shocked the hell out of me.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

On 2007-02-19, Chris wrote:
Perhaps those in Europe have better things to do than play with airplanes.
For those who do want to do so, it can be affordable.

There are better things to do than play with aeroplanes?

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de