Honor to those who came forward

"Sunny" wrote:

Art, are you actually aware that everything you used, from your
aircraft/ammo/, the food you stuffed into your mouth and the toilet paper
you used, was supplied by merchant marine, heroes every one of them, who
lived every waking and sleeping hour, in the knowledge and fear that the
next loud noise could be the torpedo that smashed their world apart.
Judging from what I have read so far, from you, I don't think so which is
sad. But I suppose in your words they were "non combatants".?


About three years ago on Memorial Day I happened to be visiting a
retired O-5 Army friend in Capitan NM (burial place of Smokey Bear)
and just down the road from Lincoln NM (notorious home of Billy the
Kid)--we attended the services at Fort Stanton--a small frontier
period fort that served prior to WW II as a TB sanitarium and then
during the war was used to house German merchant marine POW's. It has
a small national cemetary attached--probably 1500 graves--all US and
Allied Merchant Marine that died during the war. It was a very moving
experience--rows of traditional white headstones, each decorated with
a small flag of their respective nation. A piper played Amazing Grace
and a small color guard presented the colors then wrestled with their
vintage and not very well maintained Garands to deliver a ragged but
sincere 21 gun salute. It was pure Western US with the wind coming
across the prairie and the mountains in the background.

I spotted a small group of separate headstones on the far corner of
the cemetary, totally isolated away from the American Merchant Marine
graves. Here were a dozen lonely, but marked and respected graves of
POWs who died during their captivity.

They were all combatants and all doing what they could best do for
their country, whichever side of the war they were on.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

ArtKramr wrote:

Well said. And we must never forget that the rule all officers follow, is to
never explain and never complain,. And never allow youself to be put on the
defensive. It is a sign of weakness. Besides, Brooks is a bold face liar not
worthy of too much time. I think we have already given him far more than he
ever deserved..He clearly has no place among any band of brothers.

Art, I can only say that I am tired of *all* the personal comments in these threads, and
will not participate further.

good day,
KTF

In message , ArtKramr
writes

Well said. And we must never forget that the rule all officers follow, is to
never explain and never complain,.

What do you mean by 'never explain', Art?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Cecil Turner wrote in message ...
Kevin Brooks wrote:
It's "for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother" . .
. not "he who feeds the horses but stays behind."

So you join Art in scorning the service of all of those who have
faithfully served in other roles, or theaters? I would have thought
better of you, Cecil.

Mr Brooks, I may be overly sensitive, but as a (retired) military officer I expect a
certain amount of civility and courtesy, especially from fellow servicemen. Since you
refuse to discuss issues without gratuitous personal comments, I decline to correspond
with you further.

I would expect more than that "he who feeds the horses" bit from a
good officer, retired or otherwise.

Brooks


goodbye,
KTF

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: "M. J. Powell"
Date: 7/5/03 1:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes

Well said. And we must never forget that the rule all officers follow, is
to
never explain and never complain,.

What do you mean by 'never explain', Art?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell


Sorry. I refuse to explain what I mean by "never explain"

..
Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In message , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: "M. J. Powell"
Date: 7/5/03 1:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes

Well said. And we must never forget that the rule all officers follow, is
to
never explain and never complain,.

What do you mean by 'never explain', Art?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell


Sorry. I refuse to explain what I mean by "never explain"

Hehe! Sorry I asked!

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Kevin Brooks wrote:

Cecil Turner wrote in message ...
Kevin Brooks wrote:
It's "for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother" . .
. not "he who feeds the horses but stays behind."

So you join Art in scorning the service of all of those who have
faithfully served in other roles, or theaters? I would have thought
better of you, Cecil.

Mr Brooks, I may be overly sensitive, but as a (retired) military officer I expect a
certain amount of civility and courtesy, especially from fellow servicemen. Since you
refuse to discuss issues without gratuitous personal comments, I decline to correspond
with you further.

I would expect more than that "he who feeds the horses" bit from a
good officer, retired or otherwise.

Well, let's talk about your expectations for a moment. Most references on the subject
claim it's a very personal phenomenon (and even more so for small groups). For example:
"The book highlights the importance of peer pressure in reinforcing courage. For the
ship’s company and a bomber crew, the shared risk is perhaps even more personal than it
is for a company of infantry." (Air Marshal Sir Timothy Garden, reviewing _The Mystery
of Courage_ By William Ian Miller)

And various communities do not extend the same risk appreciation to others. Examples
include sailors deriding merchant mariners, or infantrymen and airmen (even though the
risks to the latter are statistically greater in most conflicts). Further, I find it
hard to believe even someone who hasn't been there hasn't noticed these things, and
believe you're being intentionally obtuse.

While we're on the personal comment stuff . . . IME the individual has considerable
control over his orders in today's volunteer military. And lately, those who wish to be
in combat don't have much trouble doing so. And there are those who are in each
conflict . . . and those who manage to miss them all. Among those who regularly don't
participate, they seem to just miss being assigned to a unit that goes. Often there are
sets of orders to second echelon commands just after the war ends, or similar excuses.
How much of a buildup would there have had to be before your unit would have been sent
to ODS? And if you're still in, you had the last couple of opportunities as well.
Perhaps in a training or similar non-deploying billet now? It all just seems a bit . .
.. convenient. (And might help to explain your apparent sensitivity on the subject.)

Hey, this ad-hominem game is fun! Let's play another round, shall we?

rgds,
KTF

Those who expose themselves to enemy fire
do not have the same regard for those who don't.

Hogwash! I've got several friends who have missed (just due to poor timing and
luck) DESERT STORM, ALLIED FORCE, ENDURING FREEDOM and IRAQI FREEDOM and I hold
them in the same regard as I do those that saw action. In fact, many of those
that have missed out I hold in higher regard then many of the crewmembers who
have logged combat time.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Never explain youself.
Your friends don't need it
and your enemies won't believe it.

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: Richard Lamb
Date: 7/6/03 9:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


Never explain youself.
Your friends don't need it
and your enemies won't believe it.

Exactly. (ROFL)

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer