OT a bit - fly to the moon or Mars?

I hear, "... go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not
because ..."

"Austin Gosling" wrote in message
...
This is odd - I know for certain that I have seen a video, where JFK said
(as best I can remember) "We choose to got to the moon [cheering],... we
choose to go to the moon and do the other things, not because they are
easy, but because they are hard." That text isn't in this one.

Aah - here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz9OXE91fP0

"Mutts" wrote in message
...

I am another pretty passionate about this topic.


Lil ol NASA is way way down there on where our money gets spent.
Entitlements
is what you should be upset about.
This chart shows how small NASA spending is...........

http://www.federalbudget.com/chart.gif

We should not have stopped going to the moon. And never should have
abandoned
the Saturn V.

But hindsight is twenty twenty. And I will say we have not wasted
ourselves by
any stretch on those space endevours since Apollo.

We are now at a time when shuttles is nearing its end.
But it has done things only the shuttle could have done.
We may very well live in an age where there will never again NOT be a
human
presence in space. Remarkable.

Shuttle taught us things we simply cannot learn any other way.
We learn by doing. WE learn from our mistakes as well. I wont defend
shuttles
costs or failures to fulfill all its ambitious goals.

The ISS teaches us much as well because we are excercising those muscles
in
the real world. Nothing replaces actually doing something. We all know
that as
pilots.

But we move on.

Astronauts bring back the visions of space, they bring back what its like
to
see our earth as an outsider. They bring back what its like to be a child
of
earth. To see our world as it truly is, an oasis in a vast black expanse.


They take human presence beyond our world.
They teach us that the sky is not the limit, that there ARE no limits.


They keep an American/western world presence in space. If we dont. Someone
else will certainly take the lead. China is seeking the high ground now.


There are reasons why this nation is where it is today.
Reasons why any of us are here at all. Brave people took the risks and
went
beyond the horizon. They did so on ships they knew may not return and on
imperfect wings.

"A ship in harbor is safe -- but that is not what ships are built for."
-John A. Shedd


The oceans are littered with vessels of discovery.


Astronaut Story Musgrave.....


"We have been a frontier culture. We were born out of exploration, we were
born out of adventure. We were born out of the plains and the mountains.
We've
been a very physical kind of culture. And so, if you look at adventure, if
you
look at exploration, if you look at immersion in nature, a physical
culture,
and all those things, you can see directly how space flight relates to the
way
America has been born and how it evolved."


"You have to keep pushing the frontier not
just because it's there, but because that's how we find things that end up
changing humanity," -Paul Hill, Mission Control



Why Space, Why Explore?
Astronaut Story Musgrave...........


We have no choice, Sir. It is the Nature of Humanity, it is the Nature of
Life


The Globe was created and Life Evolved, and you look at every single cubic
millimeter on this Earth, You can go 30,000 feet down below the Earth
surface,
You can go 40,000 feet up in the air and Life is There. When you look at
the
globe down there, you see Teeming Life Everywhere


It is the Power of Life, And maybe I am not just a Human up here, you
know.
Now Life is Leaping off the Planet. It is heading to other parts of the
Solar
System, other parts of the Universe


There are those kinds of Pressures. It isn't simply politics, it is not
simply
technology, it is really not just the essence of humanity, but it is sort
of
also, you could look at it as maybe the Essence of Life. I think Teilhard
de
Chardin, in Phenomenon of Man, I believe he put that incredibly well. So
those
kind of Forces are at Work. It is the nature of humans to be exploratory
and
to Push On


Yes, it costs resources and it does cost a lot, and there is a risk, there
is
a penalty, there is a down side, but Exploration and Pioneering, I think
those
are the critical things, it is the Essence of what Human Beings are, and
that
is to try to understand their Universe and to try to participate in the
entire
Universe and not just their little Neighborhood -Story Musgrave





One of my most convincing arguments for space exploration is the analogy
that
Earth itself is a spacecraft. Everything we learn about how to function
and
live in space applies directly to our spacehip
Earth. How to recycle air, water, how to generate and use power
efficiently,
how to grow food in closed ecosystems. All of it is important. All of this
can
benefit mankind in a world with a fast growing population. Understanding
other
worlds is how we understand OUR world better, to understand how it formed
and
where it is going. Its our only home for now.



"We must not cease from exploration, and at the end of all our exploring
will
be to arrive where we began, and to know it for the first time."
T.S. Eliot


Gallup survey.....


"More than three-fourths (77%) of the American public say they support a
newplan for space exploration that would include a stepping-stone approach
to
returnthe space shuttle to flight, complete assembly of the space station,
build areplacement for the shuttle, go back to the Moon and then on to
Mars
and beyond"




Q: Why should America send astronauts to Mars?


NASA Administrator Mike Griffin ........


A: I can give you a bunch of different answers that matter to me. But why
did
Spain bankroll Magellan to leave port with five ships and head out around
the
world, two of which never made it past the Canary Islands and two more of
which were lost on the way? They got one ship back three years later with
something like 20 or so people out of an initial crew of 122 across all
the
ships. Why'd they do that? It is in the nature of humans to find, to
define,
to explore and to push back the frontier. And in our time, the frontier is
space and will be for a very long time.


Give me a counter example to the statement I'm about to make. When the
history
books are written, the nations that are preeminent in their time are those
nations that dominate the frontiers of their time. The failed societies
are
the ones that pull back from the frontier. I want our society, America,
western society, to be preeminent in the world of the future and I want us
not
to be a failed society. And the way to do that, universally so, is to push
the
frontier.


Now we don't do that with every dollar we've got. Obviously, most of our
money
has to be spent on today's concerns. But we're talking about something
here
that uses six tenths of a percent of the federal budget. This is not
exactly
spending money like a drunken sailor. This is an investment for our
grandchildren's grandchildren.


I could make a very good argument on the basis of economics, that the
European
investment in the New World didn't pay off, really, for Europeans for 400
years. I could make an argument for you that the biggest payoff of
European
investment in the New World was the existence of America to bail them out
of
World War 2. Europe would have sunk into a dark age in the 20th century
with
the set of political activities and behaviors that led to World War 1 and
then
World War 2, which followed from that. Without the investment in the New
World, there would not have been another society elsewhere on the planet
to
prevent Europe from falling back into a second dark age. And I could make
an
argument that European investment in the New World was a net loss for
hundreds
of years and finally was worth the effort.


These kinds of activities, as I say, they're not large in the grand scheme
of
things, although it looks large when you write down the budget numbers,
and
they don't pay off today. They pay off for our grandchildren's
grandchildren.
And I care about that and I think everyone else should, too. -NASA
Administrator Mike Griffin



A note was found from the Challenger commander in his breifcase after the
accident...
Excerpted from Silver Linings : Triumph of the Challenger 7. by June
Scobee
Rodgers and June Scobee Rogers.

"We have whole planets to explore, we have new worlds to build. We have a
solar system to roam in. And if only a tiny fraction of the human race
reaches
out toward space, the work they do there will totally change the lives of
all
the billions of humans who remain on earth, just as the strivings of a
handful
of colonists in the new world totally changed the lives of everyone in
Europe,
Asia & Africa."
p

Had Dick left the note in his briefcase for us to find if something
happened?
Did he write it on scratch paper to use to quote in a speech? All we'll
ever
know is that when we most needed a message, it was there. He left for us
his
dream for the world, his vision for space exploration."



Please consider the above. It is about so much more then you think.
Humanity is just getting started. Mere baby steps so far.

The civilizations that lead on the frontier, end up dictating the course
of
human history.



And that work continues. New designs are being worked on and tests are
beginning now.
This... is what is next for NASA.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vZ8RIcmWAk


Lunar helium 3 may end up powering fusion reactors on earth someday.
You never know what is going to matter and change the world.

We learned of lunar helium 3 because of our exploration efforts there.

We must push forward, challenge and improve and yes sometimes manage risk.
Always.

As pilots we all know what that means personally. And we all know what it
means when we do not do these efforts.
It is no different as a nation or a species.

Moon, Mars and beyond are no different from the frontiers of the past that
called and challenged us and formed who we are today. It is simply hard
coded
in our being to do these things.


Many great quotes!

Peter

Thanks for the bottom posted one liner and no snipping. This was a record
breaker for me. A new personal best!

mike

"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
.. .

"Mutts" wrote in message
...

I am another pretty passionate about this topic.


Lil ol NASA is way way down there on where our money gets spent.
Entitlements
is what you should be upset about.
This chart shows how small NASA spending is...........

Mutts wrote:
[much]

Totally agree as to humankinds imagination and spirit to conquer.

Moon, Mars and beyond are no different from the frontiers of the past

Except in the past they didn't have to carry their own atmosphere, water &
food were usually available in some form, temperatures didn't vary
plus/minus hundreds of degrees, radiation was unheard of (not counting
sunburn), and if something broke you could generally stop to fix it, even if
it took a year or two, and there might even be another living being to
assist..

A very large portion of the early conquering of our noble terrestrial world,
was to pad the bank account of the conqueror with pillaged gold, slaves,
short cuts for trade routes, etc. (sometimes not that particularly noble no
matter how herculean the effort), many simply to become famous and hopefully
rich, and many just for the sheer experience.

I'm not saying eliminate space exploration, only use some common sense as to
balance what we have for resources (both monetary & technical), what we
actually need to accomplish the goal, what we might practically benefit/gain
from the endeavor vs. pure political bull**** and waste. I think we're
presently pushing the envelope for our present state of everything
concerned. A little later, or a lot later, who knows what'll happen..

Moon, Mars and beyond are no different from the frontiers of the past
Except in the past they didn't have to carry their own atmosphere

But in the past they did have to build their own roads, and they didn't
have power tools. We have more technology now, so we can accomplish
more kinds of exploration. It's no different.

A very large portion of the early conquering of our noble terrestrial world,
was to pad the bank account of the conqueror with pillaged gold...

.... and a large portion of our present exploration is to establish a
presence before others do, and prevent us from ever going there. It's
another form of padding the bank account, where power is currency, and
the outlook is longer term.

what we might practically benefit/gain
from the endeavor vs. pure political bull**** and waste.

"political bull****" is just politics you don't agree with, no?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
Moon, Mars and beyond are no different from the frontiers of the
past
Except in the past they didn't have to carry their own atmosphere

But in the past they did have to build their own roads, and they
didn't have power tools. We have more technology now, so we can
accomplish more kinds of exploration. It's no different.

Well, a different different. That pioneer spirit remains, but roadside
repairs or finding an island with fresh water will be a little more
difficult now..


A very large portion of the early conquering of our noble
terrestrial world, was to pad the bank account of the conqueror with
pillaged gold...

... and a large portion of our present exploration is to establish a
presence before others do, and prevent us from ever going there. It's
another form of padding the bank account, where power is currency, and
the outlook is longer term.


If not mistaken, haven't taken the time to verify this, but I believe
there's an international agreement that nobody can lay claim to anything in
outer space, contrary to the good ole days when you could paddle up to some
beach, plant a flag, and claim it for King George - while the native
inhabitants look on in disbelief (just before being enslaved to work in the
gold mine).... So lord knows nobody would have the audacity to breach an
international agreement, set up SAM sites on the moon, etc., right??
))))))))

what we might practically benefit/gain
from the endeavor vs. pure political bull**** and waste.

"political bull****" is just politics you don't agree with, no?


Absolutely! And that covers about 95% of it lately............

Well, a different different. That pioneer spirit remains, but roadside
repairs or finding an island with fresh water will be a little more
difficult now..

An unimportant difference. And btw "roadside repairs" are made all the
time to spacecraft, in the form of new computer instructions beamed up
from Earth. The tools have changed, but concept remains true.

I believe there's an international agreement
that nobody can lay claim to anything in
outer space

Yes, there is such an agreement - words on paper - and it will hold true
until there is no competition. Then space will "belong" to whoever is
actually there. Waddayagonnadoboudit?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article , says...

Mutts wrote:
[much]

Totally agree as to humankinds imagination and spirit to conquer.

Moon, Mars and beyond are no different from the frontiers of the past

Except in the past they didn't have to carry their own atmosphere, water &
food were usually available in some form, temperatures didn't vary
plus/minus hundreds of degrees, radiation was unheard of (not counting
sunburn), and if something broke you could generally stop to fix it, even if
it took a year or two, and there might even be another living being to
assist..

A very large portion of the early conquering of our noble terrestrial world,
was to pad the bank account of the conqueror with pillaged gold, slaves,
short cuts for trade routes, etc. (sometimes not that particularly noble no
matter how herculean the effort), many simply to become famous and hopefully
rich, and many just for the sheer experience.

I'm not saying eliminate space exploration, only use some common sense as to
balance what we have for resources (both monetary & technical), what we
actually need to accomplish the goal, what we might practically benefit/gain
from the endeavor vs. pure political bull**** and waste. I think we're
presently pushing the envelope for our present state of everything
concerned. A little later, or a lot later, who knows what'll happen..





Again, mining lunar helium 3 may have a huge impact on mankind.

Some speculate another space race for this very reason.

We ought to spend a bit more if you ask me on such things.

Why explore desert islands?
To learn to find the beautiful ones.

but we will learn to build some along the way too, at least stepping stones.

Terra forming Mars?

Now something like that is very very far off I know. And there is a giggle
factor.
But there was a giggle factor about the X-Prize for many years. Nobody is
giggling now.

Perhaps terraforming small caverns? Small steps.

Some will point out that nobody lives under the sea or at the south pole (in
large numbers anyways) why go into space?

Because we already have a solid human presence on earth.

The reasons are numerous why humans have explored and lived in places that are
far from easy.

But the challenge to our nature was the same, it wasnt any easier for them in
their time, simply it looks easier to us today.

Many died or did not come back failing utterly. and there was little immediate
conventional reward for those that did succeed. Was that easy? The challenge
was in most ways even greater then what we face today to explore our little
backyard in space if you look at it that way.

Sure the technology changes, the frontiers change, and some of the reasons to
do it change.

But whatever it is that compells us forward into risky endeavours is hardcoded
into us. That will never change.

Clearly it is a key reason why our species is 6.5 billion strong today.

And it truly is not very much money compared to all the other moneys spent by
our government. And we do get a return on developed spinoff technology as
well.

And we must not dismiss the high likelyhood of revolutionary propulsion
breakthroughs to come. Those kinds of things can initate great leaps forward
in a short time. What seems realistically out of reach today could change
overnight. Think of the leaps forward in aviation alone. From a mad dream even
once doubted by one of the Wright bros to blaise airline travellers griping
about food, all in a time span of mere decades.



I like flowery quotes about such things, I am a pretty typical unemotional
guy. I think I have about four emotions. Hunger, that is an emotion right?
Does that count?

Anyways.....

"For I dipt into the future, far as human eye could see, saw the vision of the
world, and all the wonder that would be." --Alfred Lord Tennyson ...


"The visions we present to our children shape the future. It matters what
those visions are. Often they become self-fulfilling prophecies. Dreams are
maps"............. "Our children long for realistic maps of a future they
(and we) can be proud of. Where are the cartographers of human purpose?" -Carl
Sagan


NASA, the things they do and plan to do,
are indeed "cartographers of human purpose".


It is no different from taking someone up for the first time flying in GA
aircraft, or even seeing a planet through a backyard telscope for the first
time.
You open up another world and they see things in an entirely new way and their
world got just a little bigger. They don't forget it.
We need this stuff.

On May 9, 5:49 pm, (Mutts) wrote:
Terra forming Mars?

Now something like that is very very far off I know. And there is a giggle
factor.

I recall an article (Popular Science? Discover?) about a decade ago,
which detailed how to terraform Mars. At the time, they figured it
would take 50-100 years, at a mere $150 million a day (one third to
one half the cost of the Iraq war). Costly, but if shared by all the
nations, quite doable... and the result is more or less another Earth,
with thinner air.

Just think of the vacation possibilities. Heck, I've seen Earth
tourist hotels that probably took more effort ;-)

MM - Great post, even though I passionately disagree.

I have 2 responses to add to the (very good) stuff thats already been
said:

You continually speak of the danger of human space exploration as a
bad thing. I could not disagree more.

As a culture, we are becoming ever more complacent. Ever more sheep.
Ever more tied up in the irrational and insignificant peddling of day
to day life. Without a frontier to inspire us, humans are trapped
believing that the only thing significant is the here and now, the
mundane reality of their individual existences. Yes, religion and
faith does help somewhat to alleviate this... but I'm not sure it does
so in particularly helpful ways (forcing people to focus on life after
death, instead of caring about what they make of their life). Also,
for many of us, the religious of our childhood have simply failed to
live up to the level of intellectual scrutiny we were raised to apply
to the world around us.

Either way... The simple fact is, without frontier - without the
calling of the unknown, and the passion for bettering the human
condition, we as a species tend to get caught up instead in trivial
nonsense and abject terror. If there is nothing else than the here
and now, I will not and cannot risk doing that which might jeopardize
it... I must be safe! I must not expose myself to risk of any kind!
Not now! Not ever!

Look around you - look at how pathetic we've become. We measure our
cars by the number of airbags they have. We no longer teach our
children "look both ways before you cross the street", we tell them
"NEVER EVER EVER CROSS THE STREET!". We plead with our government to
oppress us, to take away our options in life lest we become deluded,
distracted, or otherwise unaware and make a bad choice.

The concept of personal responsibility, risk management, and the value
of experience over safety has all been tremendously skewed over the
past 60 years... and its something I attribute directly to the 'loss
of frontier'... When we're kids we dream... when I was a kid, I
dreamed of exploring space, no matter what the cost. I learned to
value a calling beyond myself and my own wellbeing - that of bettering
humanity... and I would still, tomorrow, volunteer on a mission to
mars even if my odds of survival were only 50:50... Hell, the
original new world explorers odds were nearly that good... how quickly
we forget the risks they faced while we live the rewards of those
risks.

Its pathetic. We're pathetic, and if we don't find a new frontier
soon, and allow those of us who still possess the explorers instinct
to go do their thing before the instinct itself goes extinct... I hold
zero hope for the future of the human race.

Humanistic philosophy aside... the other side of the coin for me is
the technical:

I think you severely underestimate the amount of engineering and
technology from NASA that has filtered down into our lives... Never
mind the computer that you are using currently (transistor technology
was designed as a replacement for vacuum tubes that were to heavy and
power hungry for spacecraft). As a Silicon Valley Engineer, I can
with virtual certainty tell you that was it not for NASA and the
technologies developed during Apollo, the entire Web revolution would
not have happened.

But hell, that's just an extreme example... It comes down the
engineering constraints. Engineering revolutions, while expensive,
generally come when they are put to rather extreme constraints, beyond
the general needs of day to day life... otherwise engineering tends to
be evolutionary, rather than revolutionary. Spaceflight offers one
particular for am extreme engineering constraints...

The results of those engineering revolutions are often extremely
difficult to predict... but historically they've been pretty
spectacular... why not spend a fraction of our resources (and NASA
really is a fraction, compared to what we spend on farm subsidies, or
Iraq (not to mention the military, which does have a certain trickle-
down technological effect as well)... NASA is a relatively small
portion of the US budget... considering the potential for both long
term humanistic inspiration and short-term technical revolutions to
spin off from it, methinks its a wise, small, although comparatively
high-risk investment.