Ratings for an Amphibian

Ok, so I have a related question:
With these new LSA amphibs coming out (like the Mermaid), does one fly
them using "sport pilot" privledges? Or does one have to go out and
get SES rating for it? Let's say I buy one and I have a SEL rating
only, can I fly it under sport pilot rules without going out and
getting a SES rating...? I'm inclined to think so, but I'd like to
hear what people say.

What the insurance company says is a whole different can of worms, I
realize! I'm just talking strictly about the FAR's (or the CFR Part
blah, blah, blah...they're still FAR's to me)

-Ryan in Madison, WI

wrote:
Ok, so I have a related question:
With these new LSA amphibs coming out (like the Mermaid), does one fly
them using "sport pilot" privledges? Or does one have to go out and
get SES rating for it? Let's say I buy one and I have a SEL rating
only, can I fly it under sport pilot rules without going out and
getting a SES rating...? I'm inclined to think so, but I'd like to
hear what people say.

What the insurance company says is a whole different can of worms, I
realize! I'm just talking strictly about the FAR's (or the CFR Part
blah, blah, blah...they're still FAR's to me)

-Ryan in Madison, WI

I would think you would need a sea rating to one or the other.

Which brings up another question, can one hold two different types
of certificates, i.e. private single engine land and light sport
rotorcraft, at the same time?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

" wrote in
ups.com:

With these new LSA amphibs coming out (like the Mermaid), does one
fly them using "sport pilot" privledges? Or does one have to go
out and get SES rating for it? Let's say I buy one and I have a
SEL rating only, can I fly it under sport pilot rules without
going out and getting a SES rating...? I'm inclined to think so,
but I'd like to hear what people say.


From what I've read, here's what I found:

Since the Mermaid has a Vh of greater than 87 KCAS you must have:
A Sport Pilot Certificate with an AP-8 Endorsement ... or
A Recreational Pilot Certificate with SES rating ... or
A Private, Commercial, or ATP with SES rating.

--

wrote:
Let's say I buy one and I have a SEL rating
only, can I fly it under sport pilot rules without going out and
getting a SES rating...? I'm inclined to think so, but I'd like to
hear what people say.

If its experimental, and Im prolly wrong here...,

but you are not required to have category and class in an experimental..
UNLESS passengers are carried.

In other words, you can go experiment on your own, but you have to be
rated to take someone with you.

Dave

On 2007-06-15 10:57:02 -0700, pittss1c said:

I was wondering, does one require a seaplane rating to operate and
amphibian for land?

"Seaplane" is not defined precisely in the regulations. The regulations
only establish airworthiness standards for operations on water. Part
23, for example, says that seaplanes and amphibians must demonstrate
safe operation at a maximum wave height (kind of like maximum
demonstrated crosswind component). The FAA definitely considers an
amphibian to be a seaplane, however. Consider this bit from the Part 61
FAQs:

"QUESTION: A flight instructor in our district wants to know if he
needs an airplane/single-engine sea rating in order to give instrument
instruction in a Lake Buccaneer amphibian. There is some debate here in
our office. I cite ¤61.195(c) as making it a requirement for the
instructor to hold an airplane/single-engine sea. Can you shed some
light on this for us?
ANSWER: Reference ¤61.195(c). YES; As it states in ¤61.195(c), Ò . .
hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate
and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and CLASS OF
AIRCRAFT in which instrument training is being provided." YES, a flight
instructor would have to hold an airplane single-engine sea rating on
his or her pilot certificate.
Some of you may have seen some of the past policy interpretations on
this kind of question, but ¤61.195(c) got changed on August 4, 1997 so
those policy interpretations are no longer valid. The new ¤61.195(c)
applies. As per ¤61.195(c), a person would have to hold an airplane
single-engine sea rating on his or her pilot certificate.
{Q&A-119}
QUESTION: Regarding FAR 61.195(c). The confusion arises about the
"instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class of
aircraft". What is the intent or meaning here, instrument is not class
specific. Seems like it would be enough to say "...must hold an
instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot
certificate that is appropriate to the category of aircraft in which
instrument training is being provided."
Perhaps an example would help illustrate the issue. Could an instrument
rated instructor (CFII) give instrument instruction in a multiengine
airplane if the instructor did not have a multiengine instructor rating
or a multiengine
rating on their commercial pilot certificate? The traditional answer to
this question has been yes...but, make sure you don't get into the
realm of multiengine instruction by pulling an engine or doing
something else that would require multiengine skills. Has this changed
with FAR 61.195(c)? ANSWER: Reference ¤61.195(c), it states: (c)
Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight
training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not
limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight
instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the
category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being
provided.
In reference to your specific question, the answer is NO. A person that
does not hold an airplane multiengine rating on his pilot and flight
instructor certificate shall not give instrument training in a
multiengine airplane.
{Q&A-111} "

Now is it clear as mud? The question does not address anything except
whether a flight instructor with no seaplane rating may give
instruction in an amphibian. The followup answer using multiengine as
an example seems contradictory.

However, I think from reading this is that the FAA considers amphibians
to be both sea and land planes and that anyone acting as PIC in them
needs the appropriate category and class ratings. IOW, you have to have
both ASEL and ASES ratings when flying as PIC of a Lake Buccaneer. When
flying an amphibian, I log both land and sea plane time (for whatever
it is worth).
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On 2007-06-15 13:56:13 -0700, C J Campbell
said:

On 2007-06-15 10:57:02 -0700, pittss1c said:

I was wondering, does one require a seaplane rating to operate and
amphibian for land?

"Seaplane" is not defined precisely in the regulations. The regulations
only establish airworthiness standards for operations on water. Part
23, for example, says that seaplanes and amphibians must demonstrate
safe operation at a maximum wave height (kind of like maximum
demonstrated crosswind component). The FAA definitely considers an
amphibian to be a seaplane, however. Consider this bit from the Part 61
FAQs:

"QUESTION: A flight instructor in our district wants to know if he
needs an airplane/single-engine sea rating in order to give instrument
instruction in a Lake Buccaneer amphibian. There is some debate here in
our office. I cite ¤61.195(c) as making it a requirement for the
instructor to hold an airplane/single-engine sea. Can you shed some
light on this for us?
ANSWER: Reference ¤61.195(c). YES; As it states in ¤61.195(c), Ò . .
hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate
and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and CLASS OF
AIRCRAFT in which instrument training is being provided." YES, a flight
instructor would have to hold an airplane single-engine sea rating on
his or her pilot certificate.
Some of you may have seen some of the past policy interpretations on
this kind of question, but ¤61.195(c) got changed on August 4, 1997 so
those policy interpretations are no longer valid. The new ¤61.195(c)
applies. As per ¤61.195(c), a person would have to hold an airplane
single-engine sea rating on his or her pilot certificate.
{Q&A-119}
QUESTION: Regarding FAR 61.195(c). The confusion arises about the
"instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class of
aircraft". What is the intent or meaning here, instrument is not class
specific. Seems like it would be enough to say "...must hold an
instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot
certificate that is appropriate to the category of aircraft in which
instrument training is being provided."
Perhaps an example would help illustrate the issue. Could an instrument
rated instructor (CFII) give instrument instruction in a multiengine
airplane if the instructor did not have a multiengine instructor rating
or a multiengine
rating on their commercial pilot certificate? The traditional answer to
this question has been yes...but, make sure you don't get into the
realm of multiengine instruction by pulling an engine or doing
something else that would require multiengine skills. Has this changed
with FAR 61.195(c)? ANSWER: Reference ¤61.195(c), it states: (c)
Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight
training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not
limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight
instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the
category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being
provided.
In reference to your specific question, the answer is NO. A person that
does not hold an airplane multiengine rating on his pilot and flight
instructor certificate shall not give instrument training in a
multiengine airplane.
{Q&A-111} "

Now is it clear as mud? The question does not address anything except
whether a flight instructor with no seaplane rating may give
instruction in an amphibian. The followup answer using multiengine as
an example seems contradictory.

However, I think from reading this is that the FAA considers amphibians
to be both sea and land planes and that anyone acting as PIC in them
needs the appropriate category and class ratings. IOW, you have to have
both ASEL and ASES ratings when flying as PIC of a Lake Buccaneer. When
flying an amphibian, I log both land and sea plane time (for whatever
it is worth).

I like Nathan Young's answer better than mine. He quoted from page 29
of the FAQ:

QUESTION: What are the ratings needed to fly an amphibious airplane
(Lake, Grumman Goose, etc.)? Does the PIC need both land and sea
ratings, or can the pilot operate with only one of the ratings if
operations are only to/from the surface on which the pilot is rated?
I'd appreciate an "official" view. And we're not looking at ME vs. SE
-- let's assume we're talking about a Lake Buccaneer and a pilot with
only PVT-ASEL flying off land, or only PVT-ASES flying off water.
ANSWER: Reference ¤61.31(d)(1). Only the appropriate rating (land/sea)
is required. To operate an amphibious airplane for water operations
using the float landing gear, one must hold the Airplane Single-engine
Sea or Airplane Multiengine Sea rating, as appropriate. To operate an
amphibious airplane for land operations using the wheeled landing gear,
one must hold the Airplane Single-engine Land or Airplane Multiengine
Land rating, as appropriate.
{Q&A-317}

So what John Lynch said is that you cannot give instrument instruction
in an amphibian unless you have a seaplane rating, then he turns right
around and says the seaplane rating is not necessary to act as PIC!
HAHAHA. Who says the FARs are not fun?
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

In article ,
pittss1c wrote:

I was wondering, does one require a seaplane rating to operate and
amphibian for land?

I have a PPC with ASEL/IR ratings, tailwheel, high performance and
complex endorsements.
I have 20 hours in an Osprey II amphibean, all land takeoffs and
landing. I flew it to and from Oshkosh in 1989 for the owner/builder.
No big deal except that I am 6'2" and had to slouch down in the seat to
keep my headset from contacting the canopy. Landing with your butt less
than 12" off the ground is interesting.

john smith wrote in news:46730b3b$0$3100
:

In article ,
pittss1c wrote:

I was wondering, does one require a seaplane rating to operate and
amphibian for land?

I have a PPC with ASEL/IR ratings, tailwheel, high performance and
complex endorsements.
I have 20 hours in an Osprey II amphibean, all land takeoffs and
landing. I flew it to and from Oshkosh in 1989 for the owner/builder.
No big deal except that I am 6'2" and had to slouch down in the seat to
keep my headset from contacting the canopy. Landing with your butt less
than 12" off the ground is interesting.

That doesn't describe anything about the regs, only about the intensity with
which you follow them (or perhaps don't).

pittss1c wrote in :

I was wondering, does one require a seaplane rating to operate and
amphibian for land?



No, you don't.

In fact, I even instructed in a non-amphib Cessna 185 completely legally
without ever having had a seaplane rating..


How's that for a brain teaser?


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
.130:

pittss1c wrote in :

I was wondering, does one require a seaplane rating to operate and
amphibian for land?



No, you don't.

In fact, I even instructed in a non-amphib Cessna 185 completely legally
without ever having had a seaplane rating..


How's that for a brain teaser?


Bertie

I hope it was before August 1997...