AF Academy finished

Joey you sound very much like a very bitter person with an axe to grind.

(1) Were you rejected entry to a military academy by any chance?
(2) Were you a member and could not make the grade?
(3) Were you a member and got kicked out?

Cheers...Chris

"av8r" wrote

Joey you sound very much like a very bitter person with an axe to grind.

I'm not bitter. It's just a newsgroup.

(1) Were you rejected entry to a military academy by any chance?

I was never elligible. My GPA was not in the top 10% in 1972, and my
father had the same job as Archie Bunker. There is no inherited wealth
in my families generations, and we have never known any Congressmen
or Senators.

(2) Were you a member and could not make the grade?

I was never a member of any Academy. I paid for my school 100%.
No gift from momma or papa either. I worked on the sales floor of a
clothing store in downtown Portland, and washed my own clothes.
The only whores I knew about, were in the arrest sheet of the Sunday
Paper.

(3) Were you a member and got kicked out?

I was never a member of any military or quasi-military Academy.

Cheers...Chris

Ta, Ta

In message , ArtKramr
writes
All my CO's in WW II were West Pointers, brave well trained leaders. I am glad
we had them and not you in spite of your awe inspiring credentials. (yawn)

Flipping it around, one of the worst officers I knew was a regular who
had done all his studying at Sandhurst, while a couple of the best field
leaders I served under were UOTC graduates.

Judge the leader, not where he got his degree. (You have to salute the
uniform anyway).

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Subject: AF Academy finished
From: "Joey Bishop"
Date: 8/31/03 12:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

I was never a member of any military or quasi-military Academy.

That is obvious since you lack the military mind as is evident by your posts on
this NG.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In message , Ed Rasimus
writes
I LIVE in Colorado Springs,
about three miles from the Academy main gate. I frequent the Academy
for retiree services. I'm astounded by how seldom I see cadets in
uniform off the facility. With nearly 4000 cadets in training, it
would seem reasonable to see a lot more.

When I was looking for lunch in Annapolis, you couldn't swing a cat
without hitting a USNA student, or so it seemed. (I might add that they
presented as a well-behaved bunch, only made conspicuous by the uniform,
rank tabs and name badges - certainly better behaved than I and my
cohorts were as students).

They probably
have earned an advanced degree and they undoubtedly have supervised
more people, larger budgets, bigger projects with more responsibility
than their civilian counterparts.

Well, not always - they get to *use* the kit, but someone had to design
and build it for them

The ones who are getting the bad press, are the ones who will be
weededd out. They are in the decidedly small minority.

Too true.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Subject: AF Academy finished
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 8/31/03 12:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes
All my CO's in WW II were West Pointers, brave well trained leaders. I am
glad
we had them and not you in spite of your awe inspiring credentials. (yawn)

Flipping it around, one of the worst officers I knew was a regular who
had done all his studying at Sandhurst, while a couple of the best field
leaders I served under were UOTC graduates.

Judge the leader, not where he got his degree. (You have to salute the
uniform anyway).

--

You have your experiences, I have mine.
..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Agree completely.

Violators should be identified and swift, sure justice meted out.

Including the women involved; one problem that has persisted to this point
is that women involved in breaches of the rules have not been punished- all
they need to do to avoid punishment is to make an allegation of sexual
assault, and their prosecution grinds to a halt.

What, you think they don't figure this out in oh say the first 10 days of
training?

Some (no numbers on how many) of the most recent cases of "Sexual Assault"
invove some very "interesting" circumstances; many where the allegation came
out only after an investigation of a femal cadet's misbehavior was about to
result in punishment.

I think where the previous regime really screwed the pooch was int hat they
were being thorough, impartial and objective in their investigations.

Obviously, that didn't "strike the right tone" for some folks.

Can we solve the problem by using a "shoot first, ask quesitons later"
approach combined with "the male will always be guilty" approach? You bet
your ass that will work. Probably faster and more efficiently than any
"fair" approach. What's best for the academy as an institution at this
point in time might be a raw deal for any male who strays one iota from
conduct rules for the next few years.

So be it. Let's go burn us some "witches."

Steve Swartz


"Gooneybird" wrote in message
...
Vaughn wrote:
"Joey Bishop" wrote in message
.. .
"Seven 20- and 21-year-old cadets were ticketed by police for drinking
alcohol in an off-campus hotel room early Saturday with two young
women, aged 16 and 18. "

Horrors! College kids actually drinking and pairing off with the
opposite sex? What is this world coming to?

As far as I'm concerned, the AF Academy has failed it's mission, and
the
tax dollars should be shifted to the Army and Naval Academies. There
is
no reason for it's further existence.

Bull****. Do you really think that there is no drinking and
whoring
going on at the Army and Navy Academies?

That may be, but one might reasonably wonder why any of them thought they
were
ordinary college boys and able to do the boozing and whoring that ordinary
college boys do. In any case, whatever the academy, they need to be shown
the
door on the basis of their display of conduct unbecoming of an officer,
etc.,
which I think is part of Art. 134 of the UCMJ. They're supposed to be
different
from and better than the ordinary and, if they aren't, they never will be
missed.

George Z.

The appearance of lawyers is the first sign of true civilization, the
proliferation of them (we have more lawyers than doctors in this country) is
the first sign of civilization's demise.

R / John

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: AF Academy finished
From: "John Smith"
Date: 8/31/03 5:38 AM Pacific

Too many lawyers and politics in the military today.


Without lawyers there is no rule of law. Besides, the lawyers raped no
one.
Keep you eye on the ball.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Ed Rasimus wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

There are clearly problems at the school, but I don't think it is
productive to seek simple solutions. Some of the problems are
unquestionably the result of failed oversight. Other factors are the
integration of women into a predominently male culture. There are
always going to be neanderthals who will resist the progress of
bringing women into a warrior ethic. It's taken twenty-five years to
bring women into pilot training in the USAF, then several more years
to get them eligible for combat crew positions, then more years to get
them accepted as meeting the standard for those jobs. Now, they've
performed adequately in combat roles in a couple of actual shooting
engagements and their acceptance is nearly complete.

All true, but not everyone who resists the progress of bringing women
in a warrior ethic are "neanderthals." I'm all for women being trained
to fly high tech equipment in combat...as long as they're also being
trained to fight alongside the men on the ground (as go-gettum
warriors -- not merely support personnel like Jessica Lynch). It takes
three times longer to train a SEAL or special forces operative as it
does a fighter pilot but we don't see any women SEALS, Rangers,
Delta Force, etc. The only reason the USAF and USN are training
women to fly airplanes is simply because flying an F-18 or A-10
doesn't require the physical attributes required to be an effective
warrior on the ground. They can't legislate physical strength (they
can only bitch to God for creating men and women unequal in the
strength department) but for political purposes they CAN train women
as pilots.

-Mike Marron

In message , Mike Marron
writes
All true, but not everyone who resists the progress of bringing women
in a warrior ethic are "neanderthals." I'm all for women being trained
to fly high tech equipment in combat...as long as they're also being
trained to fight alongside the men on the ground (as go-gettum
warriors -- not merely support personnel like Jessica Lynch). It takes
three times longer to train a SEAL or special forces operative as it
does a fighter pilot but we don't see any women SEALS, Rangers,
Delta Force, etc.

Where will you recruit them from, since you're legally forbidden to have
female infantry?

They can't legislate physical strength (they
can only bitch to God for creating men and women unequal in the
strength department) but for political purposes they CAN train women
as pilots.

Back when I was in uniform, our job was rescuing and repairing damaged
vehicles.

There's no way that any individual, no matter how pumped, buffed and
beefy, is going to drag a 70-ton tank out of the mud it's bogged in.
What _does_ count is fitness, stamina, resilience, and intelligence (to
pull that seventy-ton tank out of the swamp with a twenty-ton recovery
vehicle without breaking cables, burning out clutches or killing the
recovery team).


I tend towards the "let everyone try for the job" situation, but I also
want solid clear unambiguous standards for any given military role (yes,
this is idealistic). Meet them and you're in, fail them and you're out.
If that means fewer members of $GROUP qualify, too bad - those who _do_
qualify have proved they fully deserve to get in.


I never had the eyesight to fly, and never got fit enough to be a Para
or Marine, but I _did_ prove I could run far enough and shoot well
enough and had the trade and field skills to do my job in the Army.

And I get to sanctimoniously proclaim that the only thing that kept me
out of a fast-jet cockpit was my eyesight (prove me wrong!) because an
arbitrary and archaic bias against severely myopic fighter pilots
prevented me from ever discovering any other reason why I wouldn't now
be converting to Eurofighters at Warton

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk