Great Contest Location

At 02:00 02 August 2007, Tuno wrote:
JJ, what on earth makes you feel that the Phoenix guys
don't support

Just my impression, I guess. How many Phoenix guys
were there this year?

One thing for sure, the place is wildly popular due
to fantastic soaring and because its 1 days drive (long
days drive) from some 10 western states. Wish it was
easier to get into, though. I was 68th on a list fighting
over 50 entry slots. Micki called me just before it
started. Not many folks can drop everything and head
for Utah on a phone call. Don't know what could be
done about what I would call 'casual interest', sure
some will drop out, but 18? Guess the deposit could
be increased or made non-refundable (or both)
JJ

Just my impression, I guess.

I get that, but based on what? The ASA guys, myself included, have had
nothing but glowing things to say about the Promised Land of Latter
Day Soaring.

How many Phoenix guys were there this year?

Nearly a quarter of the field!

rASArs at Parowan this year: TS1, N7, 2NO, 1X, CH, GY, WA, MM, 71,
OD2, 9B, and Justin Rizor (flying with KS). There was one more but his
glider b0rke two weeks before the contest.

2NO
(who will always come back, ballasted contest or no)

JJ & all,

Good point, I'm certain every contest could use the extra $, in
Parowans case $1,800.00 for last min. drop outs. #18 is surprising
last minute dropout # for such a popular contest or maybe because of
it but I was pleased to see it allowed some fine pilots outside R-9 to
"officially" enter the contest.

Forgive me for the rant but speaking only for myself, I'm not a big
fan of tweaking the rules on a whim but I would fully support
extending the non-refundable period to say at least 4 months prior to
the contest start date and just make the rules state the deposit of
$100.00 is 100% non-refundable after 120 days prior to the contest. In
an oversubscribed contest this should weed out the majority of the 6
month long fence sitters who had nothing to loose but were always in
doubt. This should still allow the CM ample time for final
preparations and has the added benefit of removing the somewhat
emotional decision by the CM to keep the deposit and just make it
mandatory per the rules. I would be surprised if any past and current
CMs would be unhappy with this rule change.

Legitimate reasons for dropping out at the last minute will still
occur; family, health, work obligations, financial, etc. that's just a
given. I suspect even with the substantial sums of $ we all gleefully
invest in this sport, be it 10k or 200k a fair amount of pressure is
tossed at the CM by the last minute pilot dropping out to return the
deposit monies. I'd like to see the $ go to the organizers who put on
the contests, take on the risks and rarely make any real money doing
so, in fact they more often than not dig into ones own pockets to
complete the show. You don't see professional Sailplane Contest
organizers advertising in the yellow pages let alone in the SSA mag?
Contest pilots are not a bottomless pit for cash but we can all afford
to donate $100 to a good cause, that's about 3% or less of the average
pilots cash cost to attend a 7 day contest.

I'd be curious to hear from other contest pilots & managers etc on
this subject, be nice.

Rick - 21



On Aug 2, 8:26 am, John Sinclair
wrote:
At 02:00 02 August 2007, Tuno wrote:
Don't know what could be
done about what I would call 'casual interest', sure
some will drop out, but 18? Guess the deposit could
be increased or made non-refundable (or both)
JJ

On Aug 2, 12:36 pm, Rick Culbertson wrote:
JJ & all,

Good point, I'm certain every contest could use the extra $, in
Parowans case $1,800.00 for last min. drop outs. #18 is surprising
last minute dropout # for such a popular contest or maybe because of
it but I was pleased to see it allowed some fine pilots outside R-9 to
"officially" enter the contest.

Forgive me for the rant but speaking only for myself, I'm not a big
fan of tweaking the rules on a whim but I would fully support
extending the non-refundable period to say at least 4 months prior to
the contest start date and just make the rules state the deposit of
$100.00 is 100% non-refundable after 120 days prior to the contest. In
an oversubscribed contest this should weed out the majority of the 6
month long fence sitters who had nothing to loose but were always in
doubt. This should still allow the CM ample time for final
preparations and has the added benefit of removing the somewhat
emotional decision by the CM to keep the deposit and just make it
mandatory per the rules. I would be surprised if any past and current
CMs would be unhappy with this rule change.

Legitimate reasons for dropping out at the last minute will still
occur; family, health, work obligations, financial, etc. that's just a
given. I suspect even with the substantial sums of $ we all gleefully
invest in this sport, be it 10k or 200k a fair amount of pressure is
tossed at the CM by the last minute pilot dropping out to return the
deposit monies. I'd like to see the $ go to the organizers who put on
the contests, take on the risks and rarely make any real money doing
so, in fact they more often than not dig into ones own pockets to
complete the show. You don't see professional Sailplane Contest
organizers advertising in the yellow pages let alone in the SSA mag?
Contest pilots are not a bottomless pit for cash but we can all afford
to donate $100 to a good cause, that's about 3% or less of the average
pilots cash cost to attend a 7 day contest.

I'd be curious to hear from other contest pilots & managers etc on
this subject, be nice.

Rick - 21

On Aug 2, 8:26 am, John Sinclair



wrote:
At 02:00 02 August 2007, Tuno wrote:
Don't know what could be
done about what I would call 'casual interest', sure
some will drop out, but 18? Guess the deposit could
be increased or made non-refundable (or both)
JJ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree increase the deposit and the cancellation period. I was
called about 12 hours before I would have to hook up the glider and
start diriving. I informed the contest personel about 1 month before
that I had to make other plans as I could not count on going. They
never answered and kept me on the list. Some people work for a living
and have to schedule vacations!

On Aug 2, 6:42 pm, Hal wrote:
Some people work for a living and have to schedule vacations!

And some people have to schedule vacations 6-10 months in advance.
Luckily, my wife now has a more flexible job, but still needs a few
months to make sure someone else hasn't taken the particular dates
first.

-Tom

I was also on the waiting list but canceled a
couple weeks before the contest started.

It would be interesting to know how many canceled
that had a entry number 50 or below.
Ray
Hal wrote:
On Aug 2, 12:36 pm, Rick Culbertson wrote:

JJ & all,

Good point, I'm certain every contest could use the extra $, in
Parowans case $1,800.00 for last min. drop outs. #18 is surprising
last minute dropout # for such a popular contest or maybe because of
it but I was pleased to see it allowed some fine pilots outside R-9 to
"officially" enter the contest.

Forgive me for the rant but speaking only for myself, I'm not a big
fan of tweaking the rules on a whim but I would fully support
extending the non-refundable period to say at least 4 months prior to
the contest start date and just make the rules state the deposit of
$100.00 is 100% non-refundable after 120 days prior to the contest. In
an oversubscribed contest this should weed out the majority of the 6
month long fence sitters who had nothing to loose but were always in
doubt. This should still allow the CM ample time for final
preparations and has the added benefit of removing the somewhat
emotional decision by the CM to keep the deposit and just make it
mandatory per the rules. I would be surprised if any past and current
CMs would be unhappy with this rule change.

Legitimate reasons for dropping out at the last minute will still
occur; family, health, work obligations, financial, etc. that's just a
given. I suspect even with the substantial sums of $ we all gleefully
invest in this sport, be it 10k or 200k a fair amount of pressure is
tossed at the CM by the last minute pilot dropping out to return the
deposit monies. I'd like to see the $ go to the organizers who put on
the contests, take on the risks and rarely make any real money doing
so, in fact they more often than not dig into ones own pockets to
complete the show. You don't see professional Sailplane Contest
organizers advertising in the yellow pages let alone in the SSA mag?
Contest pilots are not a bottomless pit for cash but we can all afford
to donate $100 to a good cause, that's about 3% or less of the average
pilots cash cost to attend a 7 day contest.

I'd be curious to hear from other contest pilots & managers etc on
this subject, be nice.

Rick - 21

On Aug 2, 8:26 am, John Sinclair



wrote:

At 02:00 02 August 2007, Tuno wrote:
Don't know what could be
done about what I would call 'casual interest', sure
some will drop out, but 18? Guess the deposit could
be increased or made non-refundable (or both)
JJ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I agree increase the deposit and the cancellation period. I was
called about 12 hours before I would have to hook up the glider and
start diriving. I informed the contest personel about 1 month before
that I had to make other plans as I could not count on going. They
never answered and kept me on the list. Some people work for a living
and have to schedule vacations!

At 03:30 03 August 2007, Ray Gimmey wrote:
I was also on the waiting list but canceled a
couple weeks before the contest started.

It would be interesting to know how many canceled
that had a entry number 50 or below.
Ray

Of the 50 on the list as of the preferential entry
deadline 7 dropped out prior to the first contest day
(not counting 711). They were 32, 36-38, 42, 46 and
50 on the list. The 10 additional drops must have come
late and off the waiting list. They called me 2 weeks
before the first practice day and I was 55 originally.
JJ got in and he was 62 on the list. SD was there and
he was 66.

So it looks like ~70% of those 18 dropouts were people
off the waiting list who likely had made other plans
by the time it got to them. That shouldn't be surprising.
Of the 7 who scratched out of the top 50 I believe
I heard there were a couple who were due to airplane
problems. Say (a guess) half the remainder would take
earlier action if there were a non-refundable deposit
- that's still a couple. And $200 would have paid for
the towpilots' beer.

I say give people 2 weeks after the preferential entry
deadline to confirm, then make the deposits non-refundable.

9B

Hmmmm,
From the May 3, list I see some 12 pilots that didn't
show up for the contest that were listed below 50!
That's almost 25%

I'm in favor of increasing the deposit to $200 bucks
and making it non-refundable 6 weeks prior to the contest.

One pilot who didn't make it in told me, 'you either
need to be real good or real bad to get into Parowan'.
He was referring to reverse seeding and allowing anyone
within region 9 to enter regardless of seeding. I'm
not taking a position on these controversial programs,
but is this what we the rules committee had in mind?
World class pilots racing against rank beginners?
Just some food for thought,
JJ

At 09:48 03 August 2007, Andy Blackburn wrote:
At 03:30 03 August 2007, Ray Gimmey wrote:
I was also on the waiting list but canceled a
couple weeks before the contest started.

It would be interesting to know how many canceled
that had a entry number 50 or below.
Ray

Of the 50 on the list as of the preferential entry
deadline 7 dropped out prior to the first contest day
(not counting 711). They were 32, 36-38, 42, 46 and
50 on the list. The 10 additional drops must have come
late and off the waiting list. They called me 2 weeks
before the first practice day and I was 55 originally.
JJ got in and he was 62 on the list. SD was there and
he was 66.

So it looks like ~70% of those 18 dropouts were people
off the waiting list who likely had made other plans
by the time it got to them. That shouldn't be surprising.
Of the 7 who scratched out of the top 50 I believe
I heard there were a couple who were due to airplane
problems. Say (a guess) half the remainder would take
earlier action if there were a non-refundable deposit
- that's still a couple. And $200 would have paid for
the towpilots' beer.

I say give people 2 weeks after the preferential entry
deadline to confirm, then make the deposits non-refundable.

9B

Anyone who has a big problem with the reverse seeding policy (which is
a Good Thing, if not essential) can organize their own Region X
contest at Parowan. It is not owned by Region 9.

2NO

O One pilot who didn't make it in told me, 'you either
need to be real good or real bad to get into Parowan'.
He was referring to reverse seeding and allowing anyone
within region 9 to enter regardless of seeding. I'm
not taking a position on these controversial programs,
but is this what we the rules committee had in mind?
World class pilots racing against rank beginners?
Just some food for thought,
JJ


It strikes me we want a third category of contest. Let's call it a
"national regional". One week long, run by regional rules -- multiple
classes, 92 seeding points, etc. -- but with national ranking
determining entry, and no reverse seeding in sports class (as in
sports nationals).

This seems appropriate when the goal, and success of the contest, is
to draw top pilots nationally, perhaps to a site where rank beginners
really shouldn't be flying, and/or a site that is far from the usual
pilot and volunteer base of a region. Seniors already does this by
waiver, and this seems like the right structure for Parowan.
Obviously, the choice whether to run it this way or as a regular
regional stands with the organizers, whichever way they think will
produce a more successful, fun, and safe contest.

I'm sure if there is any reason this is a bad idea, the critical minds
of r.a.s. will figure it out. If not, let's suggest it to the rules
committee.

John Cochrane