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There is a fundamental problem with attempting to power an aircraft
with batteries: The propulsion system must not only move the vehicle forward as it would with an automobile, but it must also simultaneously maintain the aircraft's altitude; This is significant at low airspeeds. At higher airspeeds overcoming wind resistance takes much more power than maintaining altitude. unlike an automobile that only requires a small amount of energy to overcome rolling and wind resistance once in motion, an aircraft can't coast without losing altitude, It sure can, until it loses speed and stalls. Bartek |
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On Aug 6, 3:16 pm, brtlmj wrote:
There is a fundamental problem with attempting to power an aircraft with batteries: The propulsion system must not only move the vehicle forward as it would with an automobile, but it must also simultaneously maintain the aircraft's altitude; That is why aircraft engines are so powerful and light; they're depended-on to fight gravity as well as wind resistance. Which leads us to the case of airships! They float. They don't have to work to stay at altitude, they just hang there. Their engines don't have to hold them up. But, and it's a big but, since they are so big, they have more wind resistance than airplanes. Since wind resistance is the log, or cube? of wind speed, their hull-speeds are quite limited and their engines remain relatively small as a result. Enter the less-powerful electric motors! Enter solar photo- voltaic cells! The big surface area of airships are ideal for mounting solar arrays. And if you have a cloudy day and don't charge your batteries up to snuff, well, you will not have to go to ground, as in an airplane, because you are afloat in your element and you drift with the breeze for awhile. Words to the wise about the future of flight. High cheers from Allen the airshipman |
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On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 09:53:32 -0700, dirigible designer
wrote in . com: On Aug 6, 3:16 pm, brtlmj wrote: Actually, these are my words from earlier in this message thread. See: Message-ID: . There is a fundamental problem with attempting to power an aircraft with batteries: The propulsion system must not only move the vehicle forward as it would with an automobile, but it must also simultaneously maintain the aircraft's altitude; That is why aircraft engines are so powerful and light; they're depended-on to fight gravity as well as wind resistance. Which leads us to the case of airships! They float. They don't have to work to stay at altitude, they just hang there. Their engines don't have to hold them up. But, and it's a big but, since they are so big, they have more wind resistance than airplanes. Since wind resistance is the log, or cube? of wind speed, their hull-speeds are quite limited and their engines remain relatively small as a result. Enter the less-powerful electric motors! Enter solar photo- voltaic cells! The big surface area of airships are ideal for mounting solar arrays. And if you have a cloudy day and don't charge your batteries up to snuff, well, you will not have to go to ground, as in an airplane, because you are afloat in your element and you drift with the breeze for awhile. Words to the wise about the future of flight. High cheers from Allen the airshipman Thank you for mentioning electrically powered airships. Lighter Than Air craft are excellent candidates for electric power as is evidenced by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship In 1883, the first electric-powered flight was made by Gaston Tissandier who fitted a 1-1/2 horsepower Siemens electric motor to an airship. The first fully controllable free-flight was made in a French Army airship, La France, by Charles Renard and Arthur Constantin Krebs in 1884 . The 170 foot long, 66,000 cubic foot airship covered 8 km (5 miles) in 23 minutes with the aid of an 8-1/2 horsepower electric motor. http://missilethreat.com/missiledefe...tem_detail.asp ... In September 2003, the Missile Defense Agency (MDA) and the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) awarded a $40 million development contract to Lockheed Martin to build the High Altitude Airship prototype. Lockheed Martin currently manufactures the Goodyear blimps that can be seen over big sporting events. These blimps are approximately 200 feet long with a volume of 200,000 cubic feet. By contrast, the HAA prototype will be 500 feet long, 160 feet in diameter, with a volume of 5.2 million cubic feet, i.e. more than 25 times the size of the average Goodyear blimp. MDA plans to deploy the HAA at an altitude of 65,000 feet where the air is one-twentieth the density that it is near the ground. One of the biggest challenges facing MDA and Lockheed Martin is how to get the HAA from the ground to its area of deployment, since the helium gas inside will expand more than fifteen times as the blimp rises. To solve this problem, the HAA will be filled mostly with air when it is close to the ground. As it rises, the air inside the blimp will be forced out and helium from five small inner balloons will replace it. This “balloon-within-a-balloon” concept will allow the HAA to maintain its football-like shape throughout all stages of flight. Once deployed, the HAA will generate its own power supply from thin-film photovoltaic solar cells. It will require 10 kilowatts of electricity to run its 4,000-pound radar system. The prototype HAA will include batteries to keep the electricity flowing at night, although the final version will most likely use lightweight fuel cells. Four electrically powered engines will each drive two 30-foot-wide propellers that will provide the blimp’s forward thrust. The propellers will allow the HAA to hover within a mile of its assigned location, thus maintaining its fixed “geostationary” nature. ... http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/images...es/pdf/LTA.pdf Zeppelin Luftschifftechnik in Germany resorted to a unique method of delivering its NT-07 airship to a Japanese customer. The semirigid air-ship was flown to Italy and, fully inflated, was put on board a BPDockship for the journey to Kobe, Japan. Tail surfaces and forward engines were removed. Zeppelin is leasing another NT-07 to the DeBeers diamond company for two years. It also was delivered by ship, to South Africa. The air-ship will be equipped to examine geological formations in southern African countries. Zeppelin carried 11,000 passengers on sightseeing flights in Germany during 2004. Work is proceeding on the development of the 19-passenger NT-14. First flight is expected in early 2008. Zeppelin has acquired the intellectual property of the defunct CargoLifter organization. This will become part of an LTAinstitute for coordinating activities on scientific and predevelopment levels applicable to all types of airships. It will be headquartered in Friedrichshafen. Japan’s Aerospace Exploration Agency completed its series of eight flights with the above-mentioned 223-ft-long, 370,755-ft, un-manned research airship. The objective of these flights was to verify flight control, operation, and tracking technologies from takeoff to landing. Geostationary flight at 13,000 ft was realized with the aid of electrically powered propellers. Data obtained will be applied to JAXA’s further research into high-altitude airships. Another approach to this subject, a “bal-loon robot,” was investigated by Japan’s National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST). A 92-ft-long model carrying a 3-kg payload was launched to an altitude of 55,700 ft. Power for propulsion was supplied by batteries. Data transmission failure prevented verification of station keeping. AIST has built a 43-ft-long nonrigid propelled by cycloidal propellers driven by electricity supplied by batteries. This unmanned airship can be used for aerial observation and monitoring of hazardous areas. http://mae.pennnet.com/Articles/Arti...&KEYWORD=blimp Latest generation of military airships to use solar electric power by J.R. Wilson Peterson AFB, Colo. — The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) has joined forces with the U.S. Army and other agencies to develop the 21st-century High Altitude Airship to help defend U.S. airspace, control its borders, and possibly provide global surveillance capability to military theater commanders. "It's an old idea with new technology applied," explains U.S. Navy Cmdr. Pat Lyons, chief of ISR and NORAD J-5 Directorate. "This airship is unmanned, untethered, and electric powered. We expect it to be composed of solar cells, a fuel cell, and electrolyzer for nighttime operations." The new airship's command-and-control links most likely will involve satellite communications channels. All of these technologies will probably enable the airship to remain on station for as long as one year, Lyons says. Electric power The airship will be electrically powered — possibly using a hydrogen fuel cell — with DC brushless motors and propellers as the likely propulsion system, although the final design will be up to the contractor; Lyons says there are several other possible concepts for program managers to consider. That includes the number of motors, which also would determine the number of propellers. "The concepts we've seen show speeds up to 100 knots for the objective airship," Lyons explains. "The winds at 70,000 feet are fairly benign; you're above the weather and the jet stream, but occasionally, depending on where you are, they can get up to 100 knots, building for 24 hours, peaking for a day, then diminishing for a day. With a 100-knot airspeed, the airship can remain geostationary," Lyons says. A variety of sensors are being considered for the airship's Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration (ACTD), including a small communications relay. In operation, the vehicle could be used to enable communications 600 or more miles apart, including over a mountain. Currently, ground troops with handheld communications must post a relay unit on a water tower or other tall structure to avoid losing contact in the field. ... Military & Aerospace Electronics August, 2002 Author(s) : J.R. Wilson |
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On Aug 7, 3:39 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
Are external combustion engines as efficient as internal combustion engines? Stirling engines are great for converting waste heat to mechanical energy, but I'm not sure how appropriate they would be for aircraft propulsion. In theory, I think that stirling engines are quite well suited to aircraft, all it needs is a source of "hot" and a source of "cold", the cold is in abundance (stick a heatsink in the wind, higher you go, colder it gets, more power the engine can deliver, directly the opposite of IC), the hot could be provided with any number of combustables (and some oxygen delivery system). I found yesterday after writing my initial post an article about exactly this - http://www.qrmc.com/fourpartstirling.html "Why Aviation Needs the Stirling Engine by Darryl Phillips" from 1993/1994. Given what was said in the article, I'm kind of surprised that nobody has come up with a working protoype actually. |
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James Sleeman wrote:
stick a heatsink in the wind, higher you go, colder it gets, more power the engine can deliver, directly the opposite of IC What I didn't get from the article: Where does the "hot" come from? A fuel burner, probably, which would have the same problems with altitude as an IC engine, wouldn't it? Ad- -- The mail address works, but please notify me via usenet of any mail you send to it, as it has a retention period of just a few hours. |
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On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:22:41 -0700, James Sleeman
wrote in .com: On Aug 7, 3:39 am, Larry Dighera wrote: Are external combustion engines as efficient as internal combustion engines? Stirling engines are great for converting waste heat to mechanical energy, but I'm not sure how appropriate they would be for aircraft propulsion. In theory, I think that stirling engines are quite well suited to aircraft, all it needs is a source of "hot" and a source of "cold", the cold is in abundance (stick a heatsink in the wind, higher you go, colder it gets, more power the engine can deliver, directly the opposite of IC), the hot could be provided with any number of combustables (and some oxygen delivery system). I see what you mean. Unfortunately, the highest power requirements of aircraft engines are during the takeoff and climb phases of flight. Power requirements are even greater when the ambient temperature rises resulting in less air density or a higher density altitude. That is when the most power is required for takeoff, but that would be a situation where the Stirling engine would have its minimum power production. I would also like to see a comparison of the efficiencies of IC and EC engines and their relative weight and size per horsepower compared. Unlike electrical motors, that must be constructed with heavy iron, IC and EC engines can be constructed of lighter materials like aluminum, but electrical motors are usually 80% to 95% efficient. With the Stirling aircraft engine there is a requirement for what I would imagine would be a large heat sink or heat exchanger located in the slip stream. The weight of this heat exchanger and its drag penalty must also be considered. I found yesterday after writing my initial post an article about exactly this - http://www.qrmc.com/fourpartstirling.html "Why Aviation Needs the Stirling Engine by Darryl Phillips" from 1993/1994. Given what was said in the article, I'm kind of surprised that nobody has come up with a working protoype actually. The article is interesting; thank you for mentioning it. I am e-mailing a copy of this followup article to the author Darryl Phillips. There might be one advantage to using Sterling external combustion engines for aviation: the use of atomic energy as a fuel source if the weight of the lead shielding were not too great. Imagine an aircraft that effectively never runs out of fuel! There'd be no more fuel exhaustion mishaps. |
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Recently, Larry Dighera posted:
On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:22:41 -0700, James Sleeman wrote in .com: On Aug 7, 3:39 am, Larry Dighera wrote: Are external combustion engines as efficient as internal combustion engines? Stirling engines are great for converting waste heat to mechanical energy, but I'm not sure how appropriate they would be for aircraft propulsion. In theory, I think that stirling engines are quite well suited to aircraft, all it needs is a source of "hot" and a source of "cold", the cold is in abundance (stick a heatsink in the wind, higher you go, colder it gets, more power the engine can deliver, directly the opposite of IC), the hot could be provided with any number of combustables (and some oxygen delivery system). I see what you mean. Unfortunately, the highest power requirements of aircraft engines are during the takeoff and climb phases of flight. Power requirements are even greater when the ambient temperature rises resulting in less air density or a higher density altitude. That is when the most power is required for takeoff, but that would be a situation where the Stirling engine would have its minimum power production. If an engine's minimum power production is greater than the power required for takeoff, would it matter? It would seem that if this could be achieved, the operating conditions of the Stirling engine would be mostly understressed. I would also like to see a comparison of the efficiencies of IC and EC engines and their relative weight and size per horsepower compared. Unlike electrical motors, that must be constructed with heavy iron, IC and EC engines can be constructed of lighter materials like aluminum, but electrical motors are usually 80% to 95% efficient. With the Stirling aircraft engine there is a requirement for what I would imagine would be a large heat sink or heat exchanger located in the slip stream. The weight of this heat exchanger and its drag penalty must also be considered. Why couldn't the heat exchanger be an integral part of the airframe? Wings come to mind... ;-) There might be one advantage to using Sterling external combustion engines for aviation: the use of atomic energy as a fuel source if the weight of the lead shielding were not too great. Imagine an aircraft that effectively never runs out of fuel! There'd be no more fuel exhaustion mishaps. One downside would be the hazardous materials that could be dispersed in a crash. I'd like to see a prototype Stirling using conventional fuels before exploring more exotic options. Neil |
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On Aug 8, 2:21 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
I see what you mean. Unfortunately, the highest power requirements of aircraft engines are during the takeoff and climb phases of flight. Hence why i was thinking more along the lines of a electric motor + reasonable battery coupled to a stirling. The battery provides the oompfh for takeoff (and other moments of urgency) from stored energy. The stirling charges the battery, or passes current through to the motor when the battery is at peak charge (hand waving the bajillion technical details which I don't know), it doesn't matter that the stirling doesn't run at peak efficiency at all times, in cruise mode you'd want it to be at peak and providing more than enough current to the motor with some spare to charge the battery. The article I linked to was more along the lines of a direct-drive, but I think hooking the output shaft from a stirling straight to a gearbox/prop would not be a good idea, you are stuck with too many disadvantages and it makes the engine design more complicated than necessary. The main advantage of the stirling+battery versus just battery, is that you remove the requirement for major infrastructure change (abundant charging points at airports), the stirling just needs some fuel (which could be anything from mogas to radiant solar heat) and that's it, no infrastructure change is necessary in the interim, and minimal in the long term. As an added benefit, you get much better cruise endurance than battery alone. |
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James Sleeman opined
On Aug 7, 3:39 am, Larry Dighera wrote: Are external combustion engines as efficient as internal combustion engines? Stirling engines are great for converting waste heat to mechanical energy, but I'm not sure how appropriate they would be for aircraft propulsion. In theory, I think that stirling engines are quite well suited to aircraft, all it needs is a source of "hot" and a source of "cold", the cold is in abundance (stick a heatsink in the wind, higher you go, colder it gets, more power the engine can deliver, directly the opposite of IC), the hot could be provided with any number of combustables (and some oxygen delivery system). I found yesterday after writing my initial post an article about exactly this - http://www.qrmc.com/fourpartstirling.html "Why Aviation Needs the Stirling Engine by Darryl Phillips" from 1993/1994. Given what was said in the article, I'm kind of surprised that nobody has come up with a working protoype actually. I see 2 problems. First is that although the temperature at 30,000' is low, so is the air density, so the size of the heat sink is smaller than one might think. Second is heat generated by compression of airby the high true airspeeds at altitude. -ash Cthulhu in 2007! Why wait for nature? |
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