P-51's, Aces: A Special Gathering

Unfortunately, the score of individual pilots matters very little when
your enemies build and field hundreds of thousands of aircraft. If
they scored a thousand victories and still failed to protect their
country, its still a loss. I certainly don't blame the German pilots
for the loss of the wars but the only "score" that matters is who has
their flag planted on the other guy's territory at the end of
hostilities.

The scores of airmen that serve for years in combat are going to be
higher than those that are rotated out of combat after set tours, so
that they can educate hundreds of thousands of replacement pilots that
will then go into combat with the benefit of their experiences. I
don't think that matters which country is involved - Germany simply
proves that you can have successful pilots and still lose wars. I
think its better to win wars and have less successful, per capita,
combat pilots. YMMV.

It boils down to this equation: Who has better served his country - A
pilot who destroys 200 enemy aircraft, or a man that personally
destroyed 15, then taught 200 new fighter pilots his successful
tactics? The answer to that question doesn't diminish the
contribution of the 200 (or 352) victory aces, but I believe its
better to have my country win and dictate terms to the vanquished,
than to hold a title and waste the next ten years of my life in a
Soviet POW work camp while my family and countrymen are brutalized,
starved, and my entire way of life is exterminated. Bubi was a GREAT
pilot, but his skills didn't help his country win.

v/r Gordon

Gordon wrote:
Unfortunately, the score of individual pilots matters very little when
your enemies build and field hundreds of thousands of aircraft. If
they scored a thousand victories and still failed to protect their
country, its still a loss. I certainly don't blame the German pilots
for the loss of the wars but the only "score" that matters is who has
their flag planted on the other guy's territory at the end of
hostilities.

The scores of airmen that serve for years in combat are going to be
higher than those that are rotated out of combat after set tours, so
that they can educate hundreds of thousands of replacement pilots that
will then go into combat with the benefit of their experiences. I
don't think that matters which country is involved - Germany simply
proves that you can have successful pilots and still lose wars. I
think its better to win wars and have less successful, per capita,
combat pilots. YMMV.

It boils down to this equation: Who has better served his country - A
pilot who destroys 200 enemy aircraft, or a man that personally
destroyed 15, then taught 200 new fighter pilots his successful
tactics? The answer to that question doesn't diminish the
contribution of the 200 (or 352) victory aces, but I believe its
better to have my country win and dictate terms to the vanquished,
than to hold a title and waste the next ten years of my life in a
Soviet POW work camp while my family and countrymen are brutalized,
starved, and my entire way of life is exterminated. Bubi was a GREAT
pilot, but his skills didn't help his country win.

v/r Gordon

The fact remains aren't will never concede you are correct. Think of
all the times this discussion has occurred as well as his "the Nazis
killed more Soviets" and "look at how many people died defeating Nazi
Germany" rants. It seems he's more impressed with body counts than who
wins, tactics or strategy.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Aug 21, 10:20?pm, Bill Shatzer wrote:
tomcervo wrote:

-snip-

And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.

Details, details!

:-)

Cheers

OK, there are plenty:

German side:

1) All the bad decisions by Hitler year-by-year which include: the ban
on advanced weapon systems for 2 yrs, the failure to deploy the tanks
at Dunkirk, the failure to invade Britain and take Iceland or the
Azores for strategic attack on the US, the attack on Russia, the
splitting of German forces into three Army Groups instead of one
direct line to Moscow, the failure to either reinforce Stalingrad or
let them withdraw, the failure to support Rommel in N Africa, the
failure to put the German economy on full war footing until 1943, the
failure to invest in the German atomic bomb program until it was 1945,
the waste of the V weapons programs, the failure to fully utilize
German women in war production, the failure to provide Doenitz with
300 U-boats in the N Atlantic, the declaration of war against America
on Dec 10, 1941, the duplication of effort by rival branches of the
German armed forces, the Nazi ideology of offensive tactics only,
Hitler's insistance on messing with the Me-262, the failure to deploy
the tanks at Normandy, bailing out Mussolini on several occasions,
ect...
2) Failure to produce single war-winning weapons- instead,
diversifying production to hundreds of models of the same systems and
even wasting invaluable resources and manpower on ridiculous extreme
weapon systems that would not have been on that scale even in peace
time! Great for scientific advancement but bad against masses of enemy
material. Developing "future technology" that would only benefit the
postwar enemies of the Reich but do little to win the war for Germany.
3) Nazi ideology that guaranteed defeat from within and no acceptance
in any of the occupied nations. At least the Romans gave citizenship
and a chance to work your way out of slavery.
4) The Holocaust and all of its reprecussions.
5) Hitler's absolute refusal to listen to his generals and not start a
war until 1944/45- by which time they would have had overwhelming
superiority in numbers and better prepared for all-out war; perhaps
even logical thinking would have occurred regarding strategy.
6) Somehow shipping uranium and red mercury to Japan in 1945 in vain
hopes that a Japanese bomb would force Allied troops from Europe to
PTO or provide atomic weapons to Germany from Japan!
7) Hitler's insistance on Miracle Weapons at a minute to midnight to
win the war!
8) Abandonment since 1934 of a strategic bomber

Allies:

1) Numerical superiority in manpower and war production in all major
categories
2) British breaking of Enigma codes to win naval war in N Atlantic
3) Russians moving heavy industries back behind the Urals
4) US committment to developing Atomic Bomb and using it
5) US deception with false D-Day location of Pas de Calais
6) US and RAF combined round-the-clock bombing campaign (1.5MT dropped
on Germany)
7) Mass production of simple war-winning designs, central-planning on
war production
8) US Lend-Lease policies and supply of weapons to resistance and
guerilla warfare fighters against Germans
9) Italy switching sides during the war
10) Full development of proximity fuses, radar, strategic bombers,
etc...

* Lists are NOT all-inclusive, but sufficient enough...

I'm sure there are a lot more on both sides, but those listed are
enough to cause Germany to lose the war.

Rob

Well the "mule" was not really a 109. The factory lost their entire stock of
DB601 engines in a fire, so were forced to use an underpower, overweight
alternative. Hence the name mule... (Cross between a horse and a donkey - you
figure out which part is the horse.)

Similar but more successful hybrid was the Spanish Bouchon - which used a Merlin
engine in a 109 airframe.

Now that I think of it - that's quite similar to the Mustang. Designed to a RAF
specification it was transformed into a top performer by exchanging the Allison
engine for a Merlin.

Personally I have a great fascination with the aircraft that represented the
pinnacle of piston power, and transformed the aviation world. There are products
of genius and beautiful engineering in the arsenals of all of the participants.
I can't express the same admiration for any of the uses they were put to.

Sadly we are still in the habit of war mongering.

tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:24?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
So, they were replaced with better Spits and Mustangs in the long run.
The Avia S-199 Czech surplus manufactures along with the inexperienced
Israeli pilots are definately not the same as German 109G and Ks
operated by Luftwaffe Experten... or are you that stupid???

Yet they performed well enough to halt many Arab attacks and were
Israels first fighters. So they have their place in history.

Nothing you can say can detract from that.

Rob

I don't need to: the Czechs said it all when they gave the S-199 the
nickname "Mule". Real ringing endorsement of its flying qualities.
Fortunately, the Israelis hired a squadron of ex-RAF and USAAF
volunteers who could fly anything.

In rec.aviation.soaring Rob Arndt wrote:
Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Slightly counterintuitive but it is difficult for an individual pilot to
score a large number of kills when his side outproduces the other side
several times over and has overwhelming air superiority.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Bob

The Tuskeegee troops took a hit not too long ago. Their PR seemed to
be better than their actual record.

Big John
************************************************** *************

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:24:58 -0700, Rob Arndt
wrote:

----clip----

I wonder if they will have a tribute to the Tuskeegee airmen, or will
wartime racism still survive?

Rob

Bob

Read the record. The large number of 109 kills and Aces were on the
Russian Front.

On the Western Front they ran 6-7 to 1 loss ratio (going to higher
losses toward end of War) against the Jug and 51.

At least until 1966 (last time I visited the Air Force in Guat City)
the 51 was the first line fighter in Guatemala at which time the
Spanish HA1112M (with Merlin engine) (takeoff of Bf-109) was history.
It was only operational from 1954 to 1965.

Big John
************************************************** **********

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:40:48 -0700, Rob Arndt
wrote:

----clip----

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made. It lived on beyond its Third Reich
1935-45 timeframe too.

Mort, you are a loser.

Rob

Bob

Since you know it all and put in Caps like a kid in kindergarten, how
many Germans made Ace against the P-51????

Big John
**********************************************

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:14:23 -0700, Rob Arndt
wrote:

On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:





On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.

However did they lose the war?

It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.

Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?

So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?

The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.

**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.

Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.

Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...

Ponder that Tommy-boy.

Rob

And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob

Can y'all move this discussion elsewhere? It's starting to get annoying...

Big John wrote:
Bob

Since you know it all and put in Caps like a kid in kindergarten, how
many Germans made Ace against the P-51????

Big John
**********************************************

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:14:23 -0700, Rob Arndt
wrote:

On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:





On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.
However did they lose the war?
It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.
Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?
So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?
The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.
**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.
Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.
Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...
Ponder that Tommy-boy.
Rob
And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!
40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob

Marc

Your right. Bob has to be a troll and should be plonked. Why he posted
to Soaring I have no idea

It's hard to convince an idiot so I'm gone.

(P-40, P-51, P-80A & B with small engine like Bong was flying but
better bird than me-262)

Big John
************************************************** **

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:33:40 -0700, Marc Ramsey
wrote:

Can y'all move this discussion elsewhere? It's starting to get annoying...

Big John wrote:
Bob

Since you know it all and put in Caps like a kid in kindergarten, how
many Germans made Ace against the P-51????

Big John
**********************************************

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:14:23 -0700, Rob Arndt
wrote:

On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:





On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.
However did they lose the war?
It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.
Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?
So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?
The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.
**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.
Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.
Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...
Ponder that Tommy-boy.
Rob
And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!
40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob