Force feedback versus real piloting?

I've tried MSFS with the Extra 300 model. Unfortunately, it came pretty
short. The roll and pitch rates were too slow, and not very responsive.

Hmmm... Next time you guys fly down we'll have to try it. With the
rudder pedals/yoke (no stick yet, sorry) set up, I can get the roll
rate of the Extra way beyond the point where I can tell which way is
up. The 104" screen is just a big, spinning blur...

It's hard to imagine the real deal being any faster, but you'll have
to be the judge of that...

Also, much of acro is visceral, a sense of how hard you need to push or
pull, and this just doesn't across well with MSFS.

Agreed. I've only flown aerobatics once, but it seemed to be mostly
"feel", with visual cues used to help you get the maneuver set up.
With no motion to provide G forces, MSFS is pretty useless for
simulating this kind of flying. (Although it IS fun...)

I'm sure with practice that feeling of "just hang on!" goes away
some....right?

I have used it to practice approaches in the Baron, and it seems to be more
useful here. It was especially good in reviewing approaches in different
environments and locations.

Yep, approaches, both VFR and IFR, are where MSFS really shines. It's
a great procedures trainer.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Viperdoc writes:

I have used it to practice approaches in the Baron, and it seems to be more
useful here. It was especially good in reviewing approaches in different
environments and locations.

Fly the Dreamfleet Baron. It's almost like having a new simulator.

Jay Honeck writes:

I never have the problem in the Kiwi when I'm flying, even when doing
aerobatics in an Extra 300 (Yes, Viperdoc, it's got your plane in it!
Actually Patty Wagstaff's, but I digress...). I have felt queasy
*watching* others fly, though, especially ham-fisted newbies who over-
control in all three axes...

It is well known that it's unusual for the person controlling a vehicle to
develop motion sickness, even if he might otherwise be prone to it. As far as
I know, no definitive explanation for this exists, although there are many
theories. Indeed, motion sickness itself, when caused just by _looking_ at
something, is also somewhat of an unexplained mystery.

I became nauseated watching _The Blair Witch Project_, not because it was
scary (it wasn't), but simply because the actors had no training in
cinematography and could not keep the cameras still. And apparently the movie
was edited to remove the worst of the camera movements. It also made some
people sick in theaters for the same reason.

We had one little girl puke when her dad (a non-pilot) simply could
NOT stop over-controlling the roll axis. Back, and forth, and back,
and forth, and...**urp**.

She didn't just look away? Perhaps she didn't know why she felt sick. It
does sneak up on you.

How many times can he overcontrol before he realizes that he is
overcontrolling?

How many times can he overcontrol before he realizes that he is
overcontrolling?

It's rare, but some people are absolutely clueless about flying the
sim. What's really odd is to watch people who interpret the motion of
a 104" screen BACKWARDS. They see the plane roll left, and turn the
yoke MORE left, resulting in rolling inverted.

Usually someone only does this once before they figure out what's
wrong. Sometimes, though, the "pilot" doesn't ever figure it out,
crashes repeatedly, and gives up. It's almost like something is wired
backwards in their head.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Jay Honeck writes:

I never have the problem in the Kiwi when I'm flying, even when doing
aerobatics in an Extra 300 (Yes, Viperdoc, it's got your plane in it!
Actually Patty Wagstaff's, but I digress...). I have felt queasy
*watching* others fly, though, especially ham-fisted newbies who
over- control in all three axes...

It is well known that it's unusual for the person controlling a
vehicle to develop motion sickness, even if he might otherwise be
prone to it. As far as I know, no definitive explanation for this
exists, although there are many theories. Indeed, motion sickness
itself, when caused just by _looking_ at something, is also somewhat
of an unexplained mystery.

I became nauseated watching _The Blair Witch Project_,


Yes, but you kep watching.

Just like we keep watching your little horror show.

It's hypnotic


Bertie

My only data point on this is that when I was doing my instrument
training, I flew safety pilot with my CFII's son. He'd done a huge
amount of simulator flying to learn the basics of insturment work, and
I can tell you he was the smoothest insturment flier I've ever seen.
His corrections were almost unnoticable; the plane just stayed where
it was meant to be. I comment on this to his dad later, and we both
wondered if his sim training had giving him this skill...

On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 09:42:29 -0700, Mike Granby
wrote:

I comment on this to his dad later, and we both
wondered if his sim training had giving him this skill...

I personally think PC sims are great for instrument training and
procedure practice. Note how the FAA allows certain non-motion sims
to be logged for IFR training and currency. There is some value
there.

It's the VFR flying and actual aircraft handling, like the transition
from an ILS approach to the hand-flown landing where the PC falls
short.

Since IFR has a large procedural component, sims can be of great
value.

On Oct 7, 12:42 pm, Mike Granby wrote:
His corrections were almost unnoticable; the plane just stayed where
it was meant to be. I comment on this to his dad later, and we both
wondered if his sim training had giving him this skill...

My CFI said the same thing. I "played" MSFS with an eye toward IRL
flying for about 2 years before sitting left seat the first time. We
did a 30 mile cross country during my second lesson and he said that I
held course and altitude better than some people he knows who have
been flying for 20 years. Either FS was responsible or I am the most
natural pilot to get in a plane. I am not even thinking about it
being the latter.

es330td wrote:

My CFI said the same thing. I "played" MSFS with an eye toward IRL
flying for about 2 years before sitting left seat the first time. We
did a 30 mile cross country during my second lesson and he said that I
held course and altitude better than some people he knows who have
been flying for 20 years.

I got complemented on my first lesson, too. After that, the CFI spent
the next 15 lessons getting me to look outside the airplane. G

Why would you do a 30 mile cross country on the second lesson? That's
kind of strange.

es330td wrote:
On Oct 7, 12:42 pm, Mike Granby wrote:
His corrections were almost unnoticable; the plane just stayed where
it was meant to be. I comment on this to his dad later, and we both
wondered if his sim training had giving him this skill...

My CFI said the same thing. I "played" MSFS with an eye toward IRL
flying for about 2 years before sitting left seat the first time. We
did a 30 mile cross country during my second lesson and he said that I
held course and altitude better than some people he knows who have
been flying for 20 years. Either FS was responsible or I am the most
natural pilot to get in a plane. I am not even thinking about it
being the latter.


I'm assuming there's a lot more to this 2nd lesson story as it reads as
the antithesis of normal procedure for a flight training learning curve.
:-))

--
Dudley Henriques