Multi time building Q

On Dec 10, 1:55 pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Dec 9, 9:43 am, Jackal24 wrote:

Anyone have any ideas on where to go to get around 50 hours of multi-time
cheap? I looked at AriBen, but the reviews lately are not too great.

There did used to be an outfit that paired up ME pilots in order to
gain time. The two pilots split the cost and the flying pilot would
always be under the hood (so they could both log it). I can't remember
the name though.

-Robert

It was a place out of KSNA. A good budy of mine worked there. They got
an official ruling from the FAA and the Safety Pilot had to log SIC
time. There are probably more places like this. The OP should use
extreme caution with outfits that charge for time during commercial
ops . The Feds take a dim view of this .

Sure he can, the ATP is based on total time.


"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
| On Dec 9, 9:32 pm, Jackal24 wrote:
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
:
|
| Go to Spartan or Flight Safety and get the ATP and CFI ME, they will
| hire you when you get the ticket, which will take about 25 hours
| total, then you get paid to instruct in the school for 50-100 hours a
| month. There are lots of schools that hire their "good" graduates and
| absorb the low time MEI. Check in your area.
|
| I would rather get done in just a couple of weeks. I have around $10k to
| spend on this. (a donation)
|
| You can also take the ATP ride in a single and then do the MEL as an
| add-on ATP.
|
| What would be the point of that?
|
| Because he can't take the ATP ME with only 50 hours in ME time.
|
| -Robert

On Dec 10, 1:18 pm, "F. Baum" wrote:
On Dec 10, 1:55 pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

On Dec 9, 9:43 am, Jackal24 wrote:

Anyone have any ideas on where to go to get around 50 hours of multi-time
cheap? I looked at AriBen, but the reviews lately are not too great.

There did used to be an outfit that paired up ME pilots in order to
gain time. The two pilots split the cost and the flying pilot would
always be under the hood (so they could both log it). I can't remember
the name though.

-Robert

It was a place out of KSNA. A good budy of mine worked there. They got
an official ruling from the FAA and the Safety Pilot had to log SIC
time. There are probably more places like this.

On what basis did the the FSDO say the safety pilot couldn't log PIC
despite the fact that FAR 61.51(e)(iii) says he can log PIC and the
FAA Chief Council has previously confirmed that?

-Robert

On Dec 10, 6:26 pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

On what basis did the the FSDO say the safety pilot couldn't log PIC
despite the fact that FAR 61.51(e)(iii) says he can log PIC and the
FAA Chief Council has previously confirmed that?

Robert, ya gotta be careful with this stuff. I can remember an Embry
Riddle buddy (We used to call them Riddlers) who told me they used to
put 4 guys in a Seminole (Nevermind what we used to call those ) and
EACH one of them logged the time as PIC. Riddle actually came up with
an interpritation that supported this !! As for the Long Beach FISDO,
I cant recall what the basis was exactly , but they were ask for an
interpritaion and they gave one. When the FAA first went online years
ago they had a section where they fielded questions on interpritaions
and the logging of flight time always had the most questions. Heres
the way I like to think of it; For every flight you have A pilot. Im
kinda slow and I gotta keep things simple. I have heard just about
every line there is for logging time.
FB

-Robert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Dec 10, 6:31 pm, "F. Baum" wrote:

Robert, ya gotta be careful with this stuff. I can remember an Embry
Riddle buddy (We used to call them Riddlers) who told me they used to
put 4 guys in a Seminole (Nevermind what we used to call those ) and
EACH one of them logged the time as PIC. Riddle actually came up with
an interpritation that supported this !! As for the Long Beach FISDO,
I cant recall what the basis was exactly , but they were ask for an
interpritaion and they gave one. When the FAA first went online years
ago they had a section where they fielded questions on interpritaions
and the logging of flight time always had the most questions. Heres
the way I like to think of it; For every flight you have A pilot. Im
kinda slow and I gotta keep things simple. I have heard just about
every line there is for logging time.

Sure but the idea that a safety pilot who is serving as PIC can log
PIC is very well established by the FAA Chief Council opinions, the
Lynch FAQ etc. Its not one of those "kindas" its well established.

BTW: There is no FAR that allows you to log the flight just because
you are the PIC, so it can go both ways. Logging PIC is totally
different than serving as PIC.

-Robert, CFII

On Dec 10, 8:28 pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Sure but the idea that a safety pilot who is serving as PIC can log
PIC is very well established by the FAA Chief Council opinions, the
Lynch FAQ etc. Its not one of those "kindas" its well established.

Let me apologize up front here Rob because I might split some hairs on
this one. First, the Safety doesnt serve as PIC. Second, I think this
is one of those questions where it depends which Fed you ask.
Generally (Real Generally) the FAA likes to see one PIC . There are
exeptions to this of course, but someone serving as SIC shouldnt be
logging PIC. A good example of this happens at airlines. Most airlines
type their FOs these days. So if it is the FO's leg (Sole manipulator)
and he is typed, he still cannot log PIC because the certificate
holder has to designate a PIC and SIC for the flight.Like I posted
earlier, I have seen this , and several other flight logging issues
argued but the Feds recognize one PIC. All of this is mute to me
because I dont log much of my flight time anymore, But I am trying to
keep the OP out of trouble.

BTW: There is no FAR that allows you to log the flight just because
you are the PIC, so it can go both ways. Logging PIC is totally
different than serving as PIC.

Exactly.

-Robert, CFII

"F. Baum" wrote in news:17a49ca5-905f-4aba-bd0c-
:

Generally (Real Generally) the FAA likes to see one PIC . There are
exeptions to this of course, but someone serving as SIC shouldnt be
logging PIC.

I disagree. The safety pilot thing has already been mentioned. Instruction
of someone rated in the aircraft (maybe for a higher rating, maybe not) is
another. You are a CFII according to your post. When you were giving
instrument instruction, did you log it as PIC? Did your student?
That's a pretty common situation. If you meant really, really, really,
really generally, then ok.

Hey, like the girls from Motown ued to sing, if you don't like what a
FSDO says, "You gotta shop around'

Remember, they are little fiefdoms..

denny

On Dec 10, 11:59 pm, Jackal24 wrote:

I disagree. The safety pilot thing has already been mentioned. Instruction
of someone rated in the aircraft (maybe for a higher rating, maybe not) is
another. You are a CFII according to your post. When you were giving
instrument instruction, did you log it as PIC? Did your student?
That's a pretty common situation. If you meant really, really, really,
really generally, then ok.
The CFII was the other guy. I think we are blurring an important
distiction here because Robert posted that the Safety Pilot can log
the time that he is acting as PIC. This is correct, but he cannot log
PIC for the time he is not functioning as PIC. The FAA has made this
determination , not me . If any of these cheap Multi outfits tell
you otherwise, they are not truthfull. This is how the interpritaion
from the LGB FSDO came about (In writing). I will readily admit that
the FAA has a hard time consistintly interpriting thier own regs, so
you may find a FSDO that may say otherwise
I would occasionally serve on the interview board at my old airline.
As part of the screening process we would have a panel of three pilots
who would screen apllicants (In addition to a sim ride and a written
test). Part of the panel discusion involved a reveiw of an applicants
logbooks. All of the panelists got pretty good at spotting the suspect
flight time from these cheap multi outfits , and others like the
weekend type rating places (You would even recocnize N numbers after
awhile). Of course this would always come up during the interview. The
honest canidates (the ones who would recieve further consideration)
would tell us what they logged, The dishonest applicants (The ones who
got sent home) would maintain that you could have 2 or more people
logging PIC for the same flight. We screened knucleheads who would log
PIC in the 737 they rode in to get to the interview because they were
typed. So put whatever you want to in your logbook, but dont think
that you are fooling anyone.
FB

On Dec 11, 6:17 am, "F. Baum" wrote:
On Dec 10, 11:59 pm, Jackal24 wrote:

I disagree. The safety pilot thing has already been mentioned. Instruction
of someone rated in the aircraft (maybe for a higher rating, maybe not) is
another. You are a CFII according to your post. When you were giving
instrument instruction, did you log it as PIC? Did your student?
That's a pretty common situation. If you meant really, really, really,
really generally, then ok.

The CFII was the other guy. I think we are blurring an important
distiction here because Robert posted that the Safety Pilot can log
the time that he is acting as PIC. This is correct, but he cannot log
PIC for the time he is not functioning as PIC.

I never said otherwise. However, to understand this discussion you
must mentally separate logging PIC from servings as PIC, the two are
the not same. The well understood method of both pilots logging PIC
(that the Chief Council approves of is)..
Guy #1 flys the plane. He logs PIC because he is the sole manipulator
of the controls (very, very clear in 61.51(e)(1)(i). This pilot is
under the hood.
Guy #2 serves as safety pilot and PIC. He logs PIC under 61.51(e)(1)
(iii) and doesn't touch the controls. Both log PIC.

This is the method the FAA suggests for both pilots to log PIC.

Another method is for one rated pilot to have his hand on the controls
(61.51(e)1(i)) and the other pilots (MEI) to provide instruction
(61.51(e)(3)). Both are suppose to log PIC.


Please note that logging PIC is regulatated by 61.51(e).

-Robert, CFII