The nature of military justice.

Michael Ejercito wrote:

I would imagine that boards of inquiry would not recommend a court
martial unless conviction is almost certain.

They are not usually equipped with the expertise to determine that.
They recommend disciplinary action where they find evidence of
wrongdoing.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

I got an education in this myself. I ended up before an admin board after I
served my punishment for a minor offense. A CDR came forward and offered to
speak on my behalf, so my LTJG attorney, with six months Naval experience (just
like on JAG, right?) agreed to only have him as my personal reference. When we
walked in the hearing, we found the command-selectee CDR's new squadron legal
officer on the admin board. Not wanting to appear soft, the CDR changed course
180 degrees and blew me out of the water. My caught-in-the-headlights attorney
and I had our jaws wide open, listening to him re-write his testimony into a
personal attack. His legal officer took seconds to consider my fate and
abruptly ended the hearing; they walked out together. There was a row of four
MCPOs standing in the passageway waiting to stand up for me, but the hearing
was over just that fast. I had seen officers lie before, but never like that -
I honestly never considered this man capable of such treachery, even if I
understood the motive behind it.

But, I put myself in that situation, so I try (on alternate days) not to hate
him for it.

v/r
Gordon

Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: nt (Krztalizer)
Date: 1/8/04 11:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I got an education in this myself. I ended up before an admin board after I
served my punishment for a minor offense. A CDR came forward and offered to
speak on my behalf, so my LTJG attorney, with six months Naval experience
(just
like on JAG, right?) agreed to only have him as my personal reference. When
we
walked in the hearing, we found the command-selectee CDR's new squadron legal
officer on the admin board. Not wanting to appear soft, the CDR changed
course
180 degrees and blew me out of the water. My caught-in-the-headlights
attorney
and I had our jaws wide open, listening to him re-write his testimony into a
personal attack. His legal officer took seconds to consider my fate and
abruptly ended the hearing; they walked out together. There was a row of four
MCPOs standing in the passageway waiting to stand up for me, but the hearing
was over just that fast. I had seen officers lie before, but never like that
-
I honestly never considered this man capable of such treachery, even if I
understood the motive behind it.

But, I put myself in that situation, so I try (on alternate days) not to hate
him for it.

v/r
Gordon

It goes that way all too often. But only those of us in the military realise
it. The military will do damn well as they please any time they please.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: (ArtKramr)


It goes that way all too often. But only those of us in the military realise
it. The military will do damn well as they please any time they please.
Arthur Kramer

But......if you think it is that way soley in military courts you would be
mistaken. Civilian courts are much the same, with judges the sole determiners
or pretrial motions and such. Judges routinely rip valid legal claims to shreds
and dismiss the entire case, not based upon their oaths to "uphold the laws to
the best of their abilities" as they are enacted by any state or federal
legislature, but based on their own personal biases. It's called "judicial
activism".

Judges usurp the legislative mechanisms and promote their own "moral" codes in
an attempt to shape the society from the bench everyday. And they do nothing
but expand the concept of "judicial immunity" in every ruling they make on that
subject so that they can never be held accountable for the impediments to the
enforement of the legislature's enactments that they promulgate from the bench.

The judiciary of this country is the most dangerously out of control branch of
government that exits. And don't even get me going on those "agents of the
court" attorneys of the bar.

There is some political room for a reformation party to squeeze into the
election process now dominated by the Democrats and Republicans. And if it
doesn't arise rather quickly, the entire country will be suffocated by the
overhead costs imposed upon this country by the out of control legal system.
Dave

Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: (Dav1936531)
Date: 1/8/04 1:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

From: (ArtKramr)


It goes that way all too often. But only those of us in the military realise
it. The military will do damn well as they please any time they please.
Arthur Kramer

But......if you think it is that way soley in military courts you would be
mistaken. Civilian courts are much the same, with judges the sole determiners
or pretrial motions and such. Judges routinely rip valid legal claims to
shreds
and dismiss the entire case, not based upon their oaths to "uphold the laws
to
the best of their abilities" as they are enacted by any state or federal
legislature, but based on their own personal biases. It's called "judicial
activism".

Judges usurp the legislative mechanisms and promote their own "moral" codes
in
an attempt to shape the society from the bench everyday. And they do nothing
but expand the concept of "judicial immunity" in every ruling they make on
that
subject so that they can never be held accountable for the impediments to the
enforement of the legislature's enactments that they promulgate from the
bench.

The judiciary of this country is the most dangerously out of control branch
of
government that exits. And don't even get me going on those "agents of the
court" attorneys of the bar.

There is some political room for a reformation party to squeeze into the
election process now dominated by the Democrats and Republicans. And if it
doesn't arise rather quickly, the entire country will be suffocated by the
overhead costs imposed upon this country by the out of control legal system.
Dave

To try to deal with the law "by the book" is a losing game. What the laws
says and what it does are often unrelated.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: nt (Krztalizer)
Date: 1/8/04 11:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I got an education in this myself. I ended up before an admin board
after I
served my punishment for a minor offense. A CDR came forward and
offered to
speak on my behalf, so my LTJG attorney, with six months Naval experience
(just
like on JAG, right?) agreed to only have him as my personal reference.
When
we
walked in the hearing, we found the command-selectee CDR's new squadron
legal
officer on the admin board. Not wanting to appear soft, the CDR changed
course
180 degrees and blew me out of the water. My caught-in-the-headlights
attorney
and I had our jaws wide open, listening to him re-write his testimony
into a
personal attack. His legal officer took seconds to consider my fate and
abruptly ended the hearing; they walked out together. There was a row of
four
MCPOs standing in the passageway waiting to stand up for me, but the
hearing
was over just that fast. I had seen officers lie before, but never like
that
-
I honestly never considered this man capable of such treachery, even if I
understood the motive behind it.

But, I put myself in that situation, so I try (on alternate days) not to
hate
him for it.

v/r
Gordon

It goes that way all too often. But only those of us in the military
realise
it. The military will do damn well as they please any time they please.

Since you have managed to get virtually all of your "facts" wrong about the
subject of military justice thus far, we'll take this as just further BS.
Note that Gordon is refering to an admin board--not a CM. One would assume
that *even* you would recognize the difference between the two? Then again,
maybe not...

Brooks





Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 08 Jan 2004 20:08:49 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: nt (Krztalizer)
Date: 1/8/04 11:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I got an education in this myself. I ended up before an admin board after I
served my punishment for a minor offense. A CDR came forward and offered to
speak on my behalf, so my LTJG attorney, with six months Naval experience
(just
like on JAG, right?) agreed to only have him as my personal reference. When
we
walked in the hearing, we found the command-selectee CDR's new squadron legal
officer on the admin board. Not wanting to appear soft, the CDR changed
course
180 degrees and blew me out of the water. My caught-in-the-headlights
attorney
and I had our jaws wide open, listening to him re-write his testimony into a
personal attack. His legal officer took seconds to consider my fate and
abruptly ended the hearing; they walked out together. There was a row of four
MCPOs standing in the passageway waiting to stand up for me, but the hearing
was over just that fast. I had seen officers lie before, but never like that
-
I honestly never considered this man capable of such treachery, even if I
understood the motive behind it.

But, I put myself in that situation, so I try (on alternate days) not to hate
him for it.

v/r
Gordon

There was a transcript of the proceedings. There was arguably a
statement by the witness provided in disclosure that should have
indicated the expected testimony. Your attorney did not serve you
well, you have grounds for appeal, and you should (if you ever want to
readdress this) consult a civilian counsel.


It goes that way all too often. But only those of us in the military realise
it. The military will do damn well as they please any time they please.

GMAFB!!! Art, when did you get out of the military? Would you admit
that things change in fifty years? Hell, the UCMJ was written long
after the Articles of War!



Arthur Kramer


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" wrote


GMAFB!!! Art, when did you get out of the military? Would you admit
that things change in fifty years? Hell, the UCMJ was written long
after the Articles of War!

Plus, in the military, there are many lavels of non-judicial punishment.
Stuff that doesn't appear as a 'conviction. Consider many minor offenses. A
speeding ticket.

1, and you get talked to by the 1st Sgt
Second, and you may get a (for enlisted) Letter of Counseling
Third one...and you get a 'stern' talking to, and a Letter of Reprimand
The fourth one may lead to an Article 15 (loss of pay, etc)

In the civilian world, that would have been 4 individual convictions.

Pete

From: "Pete"
Date: 1/8/2004 9:11 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote


GMAFB!!! Art, when did you get out of the military? Would you admit
that things change in fifty years? Hell, the UCMJ was written long
after the Articles of War!

Plus, in the military, there are many lavels of non-judicial punishment.
Stuff that doesn't appear as a 'conviction. Consider many minor offenses. A
speeding ticket.

1, and you get talked to by the 1st Sgt
Second, and you may get a (for enlisted) Letter of Counseling
Third one...and you get a 'stern' talking to, and a Letter of Reprimand
The fourth one may lead to an Article 15 (loss of pay, etc)

In the civilian world, that would have been 4 individual convictions.

Pete

LOCs and LORs are corrective tools, not nonjudicial punishment.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 08 Jan 2004 20:08:49 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: The nature of military justice.
From: nt (Krztalizer)
Date: 1/8/04 11:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

GMAFB!!! Art, when did you get out of the military? Would you admit
that things change in fifty years? Hell, the UCMJ was written long
after the Articles of War!

Ed, it may or may not be a comfort to you, but I for one feel that you have a
far closer and realistic assessment of the military justice system and how it
works these days than does Art. Art is a man of endless and unforgettable
anecdotal experiences regarding WWII. He writes well and if you want to learn
about how things were in his outfit at the time, you could profit from investing
time in reading his stuff.

Unfortunately, he is also a man whose biases and prejudices are set in stone and
not amenable to alteration by logic or anything else. I came to that conclusion
after numerous fruitless exchanges with him on an assortment of subjects. I
came to realize that, if I wished to retain what little sanity I had left, I
needed to discontinue communicating with him. I did so some time ago, and
haven't noticed any appreciable diminution of my quality of life as a result.

Since he is constitutionally unable to admit any wrongdoing, failing or error on
his part, your efforts to enlighten him are pretty much doomed to failure. If
you can achieve success where I only tasted failure, I would happily concede
that you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din (with due apologies to Kipling).
Unfortunately, I think you're wasting your time, but good luck, anyway.

George Z.