An Airbus Tanker?

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008 09:02:47 -0800 (PST), eatfastnoodle
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:28*am, Ed Rasimus wrote:

Lets see, we've got engines made in the US, assembly of the airframe
in Alabama, and avionics/support systems built by Northrop. Estimates
of 25,000 US jobs created by the program....how is that bad?

And, we add a new aircraft manufacturing facility to the US industrial
base thereby diversifying our production capability. Throw in an
economic binding to a necessary European consortium of allies for a
bonus.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"www.thunderchief.orgwww.thundertales.blogsp ot.com

One problem might be Boeing being knocked out of the market for
military aircraft. Boeing lost to Lockheed Martin on the JSF contract.
Now Boeing lost to EADS on the tanker deal. Basically Boeing is shut
out of the two biggest air force contract over the next 20-30 years.
Will the blow be severe enough to convince Boeing that it's not worth
it any more to stay in the market? Too much consolidation happened
during the 90s, now we are stuck with less and less competition in the
military contract market, can you imagine how horrible it would be if
the air force had to rely on pretty much everything on Lockheed Martin?

A good question, but based on narrow assumptions. First, Boeing is
well established and doing quite nicely with transport contracts for
current and future airliners. So, not in jeopardy of near term demise.
Then you don't acknowledge that Northrop/Grumman is a significant
player in the defense industry. They have not only survived, but
prospered as a development company and a very diversified defense
contractor. Rather than wither away after loss of YF-17, failure of
F-20 and loss in A-9 and YF-23, they grew into a R&D house for
advanced UAV technology, incorporated a huge warship building company,
succeeded in avionics with merger with Litton, and then joined forces
with Grumman--a company that had been building canoes and truck bodies
for survival. Add some satellite and missile contracts to the mix and
you've got a huge alternative to LockMart.

Additionally consider the incredible amount of symbiotic linkage among
aerospace contractors. While I was working for Northrop in Hawthorne
CA on ATF, the production facility there was churning out the last of
the F-5s, but also building fuselage sections for Boeing 747s, and
tail assemblies for MacAir F-18s. In the ATF program, Northrop was
teamed up with MacAir on the design and Boeing was added to the mix
when they joined McD.

Incestuous a bit, but it makes for stability in the industry.

We'll never go back to the heyday of multiple system developments we
saw in the '50s and into the '60s, but with current research costs and
risk that isn't possible.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 11:13:36 -0500, John Smith wrote:

Ed Rock compiled the book. He was an instructor of mine when I went
through F-105 training and then became one of the first contingent of
F-105F Wild Weasels that deployed to Korat in the summer of '66. He
finished his 100 mission tour that year, then stayed in the Weasel
business from then on.

He was back at Korat with me in '72 for Linebacker flying the F-105G
Weasel as commander of the 561st WWS. I see him every couple of years
at a River Rat reunion.



Ed Rock is one of God's great gentlemen and a real treat to be around. To
bad he lives in Saint Louis or I would see more of him.

Regards,

Tex Houston

"Ed Rasimus" wrote...

Lets see, we've got engines made in the US, assembly of the airframe
in Alabama, and avionics/support systems built by Northrop. Estimates
of 25,000 US jobs created by the program....how is that bad?

OTOH, many/most of those jobs are likely to be merely transferred from McBoeing
to NorGrumLockMart. Where else are they going to find experienced, current
airplane builders?

The "bad" part of that aspect is that many of those workers will not want to
move from Seattle to Alabama, but may be forced to do so, with unemployment the
only other option when Boeing shuts down the 767 line.


And, we add a new aircraft manufacturing facility to the US industrial
base thereby diversifying our production capability. Throw in an
economic binding to a necessary European consortium of allies for a
bonus.

That is a "good" part of it. Let's hope the "goods" outperform the "bads"...

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Billy wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote in

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080301/...eads_air_force
_tanker

Whooo-weee. The political feathers are gonna fly on *this* one.

Now we're outsourcing the military, too?

About time.

Bertie
At a time when Americans have few good paying jobs and little
manufacturing, of any sort left, this is a traitorous move.
The Boeing design would help stimulate our economy.
The Boeing design is actually better. Our Military didn't make a
Military decision. A political descision was made to buy the Euro crap.
As the dollar continues, to fall the cost, to us, will go up.

Lets see, we've got engines made in the US, assembly of the airframe
in Alabama, and avionics/support systems built by Northrop. Estimates
of 25,000 US jobs created by the program....how is that bad?

And, we add a new aircraft manufacturing facility to the US industrial
base thereby diversifying our production capability. Throw in an
economic binding to a necessary European consortium of allies for a
bonus.

Ah, a RATIONAL response at last !

Graham

Eeyore wrote in
:



Ed Rasimus wrote:

Billy wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote in


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080301/...hrop_eads_air_
force _tanker

Whooo-weee. The political feathers are gonna fly on *this* one.

Now we're outsourcing the military, too?

About time.

Bertie
At a time when Americans have few good paying jobs and little
manufacturing, of any sort left, this is a traitorous move.
The Boeing design would help stimulate our economy.
The Boeing design is actually better. Our Military didn't make a
Military decision. A political descision was made to buy the Euro
crap. As the dollar continues, to fall the cost, to us, will go up.

Lets see, we've got engines made in the US, assembly of the airframe
in Alabama, and avionics/support systems built by Northrop. Estimates
of 25,000 US jobs created by the program....how is that bad?

And, we add a new aircraft manufacturing facility to the US
industrial base thereby diversifying our production capability. Throw
in an economic binding to a necessary European consortium of allies
for a bonus.

Ah, a RATIONAL response at last !


Like you'd know, planespotter.


Bertie

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008 10:44:39 -0800, "John Weiss"
wrote:

"Ed Rasimus" wrote...

Lets see, we've got engines made in the US, assembly of the airframe
in Alabama, and avionics/support systems built by Northrop. Estimates
of 25,000 US jobs created by the program....how is that bad?

OTOH, many/most of those jobs are likely to be merely transferred from McBoeing
to NorGrumLockMart. Where else are they going to find experienced, current
airplane builders?

The news reports I've seen on the issue use the phrase "25,000 NEW
jobs" which heavily implies that there isn't a counter-balance of
25,000 old jobs lost. Since Boeing isn't short of assembly work on
backlog orders for 7-3/5/6/7-7 airframes and with a raft of orders on
the spindle for 787 it seems reasonable.

But, if not, this has always been the case in the aerospace industry.

The "bad" part of that aspect is that many of those workers will not want to
move from Seattle to Alabama, but may be forced to do so, with unemployment the
only other option when Boeing shuts down the 767 line.

I'm not sure how hard a sell that would be--let me see, lower cost of
living, sun-shine more than five days a year, reduced level of
welfare-statism, reasonable housing markets, etc. etc. Might have to
consume less fresh salmon and more Appalachicola oysters, but most
folks could cope with it.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Jay Somerset wrote:
What nonsense! The "Europeans" did not submit the bid. The prime
contractor was Northrop Grumman -- an American company. EADS is merely
a subcontractor (aka teaming partner).

Technically, yes, but from what I've read they are basically building
the entire airframe. It isn't clear what Northrop Grumman's role is
other than final fitment for delivery and probably they will provide the
service and support. Anyone find anything detailed as to what they are
doing vs. EADS?

I'm not sure it matters as I don't think this award will stick,
especially not during an election year and one in which the economy is
struggling.

Matt

Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 20:25:54 -0600, Billy wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote in
news:s6dyj.56659$yE1.14950@attbi_s21:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080301/...eads_air_force
_tanker

Whooo-weee. The political feathers are gonna fly on *this* one.

Now we're outsourcing the military, too?
About time.

Bertie
At a time when Americans have few good paying jobs and little
manufacturing, of any sort left, this is a traitorous move.
The Boeing design would help stimulate our economy.
The Boeing design is actually better. Our Military didn't make a
Military decision. A political descision was made to buy the Euro crap.
As the dollar continues, to fall the cost, to us, will go up.

Lets see, we've got engines made in the US, assembly of the airframe
in Alabama, and avionics/support systems built by Northrop. Estimates
of 25,000 US jobs created by the program....how is that bad?

It is only 65,000 fewer jobs than what the Boeing option is claimed to
provide.

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote in
:

[snip]

It is only 65,000 fewer jobs than what the Boeing option is claimed to
provide.

And of course Boeing' claims should be taken at face value?

IBM

On Mar 1, 7:46*am, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080301/...p_eads_air_for...

Whooo-weee. *The political feathers are gonna fly on *this* one.

Now we're outsourcing the military, too?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay
The US Coast Guard has been flying the Italian Agusta for
years ......... Bell has been producing in Canada and Korea for
years .......
This is nothing new.