Teaching Incremental Flaps in the Pattern

My Apache does not have fixed flap positions, and full down flap
results in such an exteme nose down attitude that it makes the
passengers think you are dive bombing the airport I kinda like it...
As a result I routinely use partial flaps... A little bit on downwind
to help slow the fatboy to 110 indicated, a bit more on base to give
me 100 on the speedo, and final depends on the amount of wind and the
angle to the runway... There is a flap position indicator on the
panel but it is just this side of useless - besides being 3 feet away
on the other side of the cockpit... I look over my shoulder as I lower
the flap and set it by eyeball and feel... On a dark night I set it by
the feel and experience...

I agree that students and low time pilots need fixed flap settings at
specific points int he pattern...

denny

On Mar 5, 7:51 am, Denny wrote:
My Apache does not have fixed flap positions, and full down flap
results in such an exteme nose down attitude that it makes the
passengers think you are dive bombing the airport I kinda like it...
As a result I routinely use partial flaps... A little bit on downwind
to help slow the fatboy to 110 indicated, a bit more on base to give
me 100 on the speedo, and final depends on the amount of wind and the
angle to the runway... There is a flap position indicator on the
panel but it is just this side of useless - besides being 3 feet away
on the other side of the cockpit... I look over my shoulder as I lower
the flap and set it by eyeball and feel... On a dark night I set it by
the feel and experience...

I agree that students and low time pilots need fixed flap settings at
specific points int he pattern...

denny

Twins are a little different as you have the approach speed argument
to settle first -- do you want enough speed/energy to maintain Vmc? If
so, full flaps will likely require a steep descent as you're
describing.

Besides, if you're flying a twin you're beyond student pilot days and
thus are working on art -- adapting the rules to fit the situation.


Dan

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 05:02:34 -0800 (PST), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 5, 7:51 am, Denny wrote:
My Apache does not have fixed flap positions, and full down flap
results in such an exteme nose down attitude that it makes the
passengers think you are dive bombing the airport I kinda like it...
As a result I routinely use partial flaps... A little bit on downwind
to help slow the fatboy to 110 indicated, a bit more on base to give
me 100 on the speedo, and final depends on the amount of wind and the
angle to the runway... There is a flap position indicator on the
panel but it is just this side of useless - besides being 3 feet away
on the other side of the cockpit... I look over my shoulder as I lower
the flap and set it by eyeball and feel... On a dark night I set it by
the feel and experience...

I agree that students and low time pilots need fixed flap settings at
specific points int he pattern...

denny

Twins are a little different as you have the approach speed argument
to settle first -- do you want enough speed/energy to maintain Vmc? If
so, full flaps will likely require a steep descent as you're
describing.

Besides, if you're flying a twin you're beyond student pilot days and
thus are working on art -- adapting the rules to fit the situation.

I would hope students are too. At least well before the checkride. My
instructors had me weaned off the stabilized pattern before they let
me solo. Good thing too.




Dan


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 07:22:36 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

I just read an interesting argument by Lew Gauge in his E-185 Bonanza
book.

My contentions after 1300 hours in one.

Some background -- the older Bonanzas (straight 35) have a "Flap"
switch. There's no increments unless you stop the motor as the flaps
are being dropped. Apparently it's hard on that design to start-stop
the motor.

1300 hours and two sets of tires. No problem yet.
(second set is still in good shape)


Old Wives Tale

Lew said there's no reason to teach incremental flaps in small
airplanes -- and that multiple flap applications just add to the
workload with no advantage-- apply 10 degrees, trim, apply 10 more,
trim, etc.

Why trim after each flap change? You aren't flying a Cessna.

Lew's eyes are brown and he's not advocating what the Air Safety
Foundation says.

I find the incremental changes much less work than one major change.
10 to 15v degrees change is barely noticeable in a Bo. 40 degrees is
likely to be so.

I use 110 slowing to 100 on downwind. Bout 15degrees of f laps,
Base, 90 with about 20 to 25 degrees of flaps. Final 80 MPH minus 1
MPH for each 100# under gross. Additional flaps as/if needed until the
runway is made where I just go full flaps.

Someone mentioned 100 on final being slow. That's 20 MPH over the POH
on mine. Fly the POH figures, not what any one of us or a book says.
The ASF made us calculate every take off and landing speed based on
weight, then fly it within a couple MPH.


His argument is that if the sequence is always the same -- gear down,
trim, flaps down, trim -- the approaches will be consistent and reduce

You trim a Bo with airspeed changes, not flap settings.
And the incremental changes/sequence are always the same too.

the likelihood of a gear-up landing (since the descent profile with
15" MP and full flaps gear up is very close to 15"+ full flaps + gear
down).

Ahhhh...Normally the gear goes down at the end of the runway on down
wind. Full flaps at that point can make the runway just a U-turn
away. Following that full flaps, gear down and 15 " puts you out of
gliding distance almost as soon as you pass the end of the runway
outbound. Best glide is close to 120 "clean" What he's advocating
would increase the chances of a gear up in case of an engine failure.

At altitude, fly a simulated pattern, dump the gear and go full
flaps. Now pull it back to idle and make the simulated runway.
Even at 100 you are well below best glide in most of them. However
the really old V35s were quite light so they'd be slower still.

The more I think about this the more it makes sense, except in the
partial flap case (though an argument can be made that there's no
reason to ever go partial -- but that's another topic).

I'm sure this will be contentious, but isn't that the point?

It shouldn't be. As I said earlier. Just fly the figures in the POH as
far as final and sign up for a pilot proficiency course through the
American Bonanza Society and Air Safety Foundation. Then you will be
receiving the training from the proper people. That'll be 10 hours of
class room, 4 or 5 of dual, and at least a couple with a mechanic
going over systems and care of the aircraft.




Dan
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mar 6, 1:50 am, Roger wrote:

It shouldn't be. As I said earlier. Just fly the figures in the POH as

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

Thanks for the good feedback based on experience.

But I have a few questions/comments ---

1) We replaced the flap actuator assembly this November (last
replacement was ~400 hours ago), so I'm sensitive to breaking it.

2) There is no POH for the '47. There is an "Owner's Manual" that
looks like something you used to get with a new Ford. There is scant
data on takeoff and landing configurations, only speeds.

3) How do you know you have 15 degrees of flaps? Sure you can "Compare
to aileron travel" to get an idea on the ground, but you cannot be
that precise in flight.

4) I don't know what you mean by "Why trim after each flap change? You
aren't flying a Cessna". I find (as expected) that after each Power/
Attitude/Configuration change, there's a subsequent trim adjustment --
in any airplane.

5) 80 MPH on final seems fast, when 1.3 Vso = 62 MPH (flaps down,
power off stall speed = 47 MPH). I target 65 on short final and
usually land and stop within 1500'.


Dan

On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 04:25:36 -0800 (PST), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 6, 1:50 am, Roger wrote:

It shouldn't be. As I said earlier. Just fly the figures in the POH as

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

Thanks for the good feedback based on experience.

But I have a few questions/comments ---

1) We replaced the flap actuator assembly this November (last
replacement was ~400 hours ago), so I'm sensitive to breaking it.

In 1300 hours I've had no problems and IF the airframe log is
correct it's still original.

2) There is no POH for the '47. There is an "Owner's Manual" that
looks like something you used to get with a new Ford. There is scant
data on takeoff and landing configurations, only speeds.

3) How do you know you have 15 degrees of flaps? Sure you can "Compare
to aileron travel" to get an idea on the ground, but you cannot be
that precise in flight.

Lay a straight edge on the top of the wing. Lower the flaps while
measuring the change with a protractor. Using a straight edge and
felt marker, place the appropriate marks on the leading edge of the
flap on the pilot's side. You'll soon find you can count one
thousandone, one thousand two...etch and come out within a couple of
degrees.


4) I don't know what you mean by "Why trim after each flap change? You
aren't flying a Cessna". I find (as expected) that after each Power/
Attitude/Configuration change, there's a subsequent trim adjustment --
in any airplane.

Not in the Bo. In the ones I've flown you can go from no to basically
full (40 degrees) with no trim change required. HOWEVER when slowing
down substantial trim changes are required with airspeed changes, so
if there is an airspeed change coupled with the flap change then yes
retrimming is required. Normally I find no need to change trim on
down wind (unless slowing from a fast entry) and base. On final, I
know I was flying the right speeds for the loading if the trim ends up
against the up stop.


5) 80 MPH on final seems fast, when 1.3 Vso = 62 MPH (flaps down,
power off stall speed = 47 MPH). I target 65 on short final and
usually land and stop within 1500'.

The older ones are much lighter and can be flown slower., I think I
mentioned that. With mine stall in the landing configuration is 63 at
gross which works out to about 80 MPH on final. With just me and half
fuel it's about 75 to 76 MPH. That ends up with land and roll out of
about 1200 feet and little if any use of the brakes. With short field
technique it'll easily stop in 800 or less (IF the pilot is up-to-date
and proficientg). That also results in a steep final with
substantial power. Power out landings are faster at 90 MPH and take
considerably more runway.

Gross is 2950 or 3100# when the tip tanks are full.


Dan




Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mar 6, 1:10 pm, Roger wrote:

In 1300 hours I've had no problems and IF the airframe log is
correct it's still original.

Is the flap actuator/motor the same in a Deb as a '47 V tail?


Not in the Bo. In the ones I've flown you can go from no to basically
full (40 degrees) with no trim change required. HOWEVER when slowing
down substantial trim changes are required with airspeed changes, so
if there is an airspeed change coupled with the flap change then yes
retrimming is required. Normally I find no need to change trim on
down wind (unless slowing from a fast entry) and base. On final, I
know I was flying the right speeds for the loading if the trim ends up
against the up stop.



OK, that explains it. When I apply full flaps, I'm also pitching and
trimming to attain my turn to base speed of 70 MPH in the '47 V, and
80 KIAS in the A36.

5) 80 MPH on final seems fast, when 1.3 Vso = 62 MPH (flaps down,
power off stall speed = 47 MPH). I target 65 on short final and
usually land and stop within 1500'.

The older ones are much lighter and can be flown slower., I think I
mentioned that. With mine stall in the landing configuration is 63 at
gross which works out to about 80 MPH on final. With just me and half
fuel it's about 75 to 76 MPH. That ends up with land and roll out of
about 1200 feet and little if any use of the brakes. With short field
technique it'll easily stop in 800 or less (IF the pilot is up-to-date
and proficientg). That also results in a steep final with
substantial power. Power out landings are faster at 90 MPH and take
considerably more runway.


Right -- the '47 V is very light, and bounces like a cork in the
smallest breeze. The A36, however, is like an airliner -- it grosses
at 3780 with full tip tanks.

My 1500' figure is 50' obstacle clearance -- not ground roll. I'm
guessing I'm at about 800' ground roll with heavy braking, but I
rarely need to do that.

Thanks for the feedback! I like to disagree if the contrary opinion
can be explained rationally. I'm more than happy to have my mind
changed if my knowledge/skills improve!

Dan

On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 15:21:37 -0800 (PST), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 6, 1:10 pm, Roger wrote:

In 1300 hours I've had no problems and IF the airframe log is
correct it's still original.

Is the flap actuator/motor the same in a Deb as a '47 V tail?

According to my manual the actuator motor assembly is 35-080109 for
both models, BUT and I emphasize that BUT in capital letters I have
found the occasional discrepancy in those shop manuals. One, with
which I am intimately familiar is the routing of the Throttle, prop,
and mixture controls which were replaced (died of old age) so although
my manual lists it as the same, "like anything on the web" I'd take
that with a grain of salt:-)) I'd really expect better from Beech
though.

Like the old 35s the switch is a momentary one, but unlike you guys
flying the "expensive planes", with the "piano key switches, my
economy class Deb only has a momentary toggle switch with a handle
shaped like a flap.:-))



Not in the Bo. In the ones I've flown you can go from no to basically
full (40 degrees) with no trim change required. HOWEVER when slowing
down substantial trim changes are required with airspeed changes, so
if there is an airspeed change coupled with the flap change then yes
retrimming is required. Normally I find no need to change trim on
down wind (unless slowing from a fast entry) and base. On final, I
know I was flying the right speeds for the loading if the trim ends up
against the up stop.

The early Debs (a V35 with a conventional tail grafted on - Designator
is 35-33) had a very coarse manual trim with the trim wheel hidden up
behind the panel. There's a white stripe painted on the panel to show
you where you should reach to try to find it:-)) OTOH there is no
mistaking it, but less than half an inch travel can shove you right
down in the seats or leave *things* floating around the cabin. It is
coarse in the extreme. They fixed that in the first year or early on
into the second. At 5'7" my eyes are just peaking over the edge of
the glare shield when adjusting the trim. That makes the adjustment
from 120 on the ILS at DH to landing speed ... interesting. Tis a
good thing they slow quickly, but that means some major trim changes
in just a few seconds.

However, after well over a 1000 hours I just automatically reach for
it any time I find myself holding forward or aft pressure on the yoke.
Even coming down final I find myself retrimming with out conscious
thought as the Deb slows.




OK, that explains it. When I apply full flaps, I'm also pitching and
trimming to attain my turn to base speed of 70 MPH in the '47 V, and
80 KIAS in the A36.

5) 80 MPH on final seems fast, when 1.3 Vso = 62 MPH (flaps down,
power off stall speed = 47 MPH). I target 65 on short final and
usually land and stop within 1500'.

The older ones are much lighter and can be flown slower., I think I
mentioned that. With mine stall in the landing configuration is 63 at
gross which works out to about 80 MPH on final. With just me and half

Book figures for short field landing are still better than a lot of
172s though.

fuel it's about 75 to 76 MPH. That ends up with land and roll out of
about 1200 feet and little if any use of the brakes. With short field
technique it'll easily stop in 800 or less (IF the pilot is up-to-date
and proficientg). That also results in a steep final with
substantial power. Power out landings are faster at 90 MPH and take
considerably more runway.


Right -- the '47 V is very light, and bounces like a cork in the
smallest breeze. The A36, however, is like an airliner -- it grosses
at 3780 with full tip tanks.

The Deb and F-33 is in between and a joy to fly even in weather. OTOH
if flying in IMC an autopilot is almost a necessity for the workload.
It may have a big wing light loading at 17# (give or take change),
but it's slipperier than snot on a doorknob.

I've never had a chance to fly one of the later F-33s after the 40%
increase in useful load. Mine has the 260 HP IO-470N STC with the big
3-blade Hartzell prop, gap seals, 1/2" thick speed sloped windshield,
and tip tanks. http://www.rogerhalstead.com/833R/833R_frame.htm That
prop made a tremendous difference in energy management.

My 1500' figure is 50' obstacle clearance -- not ground roll. I'm
guessing I'm at about 800' ground roll with heavy braking, but I
rarely need to do that.

The heavier weight, a slow, steep descent and lots of power will yield
between 800-1200 over that 50 footer on a cool day with a light head
wind, but that's with lots of practice. I'm no where near that
proficient at present.


Thanks for the feedback! I like to disagree if the contrary opinion
can be explained rationally. I'm more than happy to have my mind
changed if my knowledge/skills improve!

Dan
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com