F-35, not F-22, to Protect U.S. Airspace

On 9/11 random airline passengers were better prepared to defend
America than the USAF was.

What exactly has changed since?

-HJC

On Feb 1, 6:48*pm, hcobb wrote:
On 9/11 random airline passengers were better prepared to defend
America than the USAF was.

What exactly has changed since?

-HJC

Exactly how was the Air Force supposed to prevent 9/11? I guess the
Air Force wasn't prepared to prevent the banking crisis or global
warming either.

150flivver ha scritto:
On Feb 1, 6:48 pm, hcobb wrote:
On 9/11 random airline passengers were better prepared to defend
America than the USAF was.

What exactly has changed since?

Exactly how was the Air Force supposed to prevent 9/11? I guess the
Air Force wasn't prepared to prevent the banking crisis or global
warming either.

Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and
nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ?

Certain Air Forces (surely the Japanese) can accept this, with the
ultimate sacrifice (It's fully conceivable that a Japanese Pilot with
this order choose to wilco it ramming the hijacked a/c, atoning his act
with his sacrifice (and place in the Yasukuni shrine..) but about many
other A/F & their pilots & aircrews ?

It's a rather loaded issue in Military Ethic, I fear....

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

On Feb 1, 10:18*pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote:

Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and
nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ?

I'm fairly certain American pilots would, if they were in a 9/11 type
scenario or had a good reason to think they were faced with one- i.e.,
you have a hijacked airliner that's heading for a major city. I
remember reading an Aviation Leak article that interviewed the two
F-16 pilots who were scrambled to intercept Flight 93 short of
Washington- one had no ordinance whatsoever, the other had half a
magazine of 20mm. Their plan was for the first guy to empty his gun
into the airliner, and if that didn't work the wingman was going to
try to ram it. Thanks to the heroics of the Flight 93 passengers they
never had to put that plan into action, but both of them seemed
completely convinced that they would have gone through with it if
required.

Certain Air Forces (surely the Japanese) can accept this, with the
ultimate sacrifice (It's fully conceivable that a Japanese Pilot with
this order choose to wilco it ramming the hijacked a/c, atoning his act
with his sacrifice (and place in the Yasukuni shrine..) but about many
other A/F & their pilots & aircrews ?

I'm not sure you can assume most Japanese pilots would feel that way-
Yasukuni is still very much bound up with the rest of pre-WWII style
militarism in Japan, and tends to be the province of the far political
right more than a universal cultural icon. No doubt there are a good
number of Japanese pilots who would feel that way but I wouldn't
assume that JASDF pilots as a whole would be any more or less
conflicted than any other air force's pilots. If we were discussing a
similar scenario in the 1930s or early 40s, I might go along with you.

-JTD

It's a rather loaded issue in Military Ethic, I fear....

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

Jeff Dougherty ha scritto:
On Feb 1, 10:18 pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote:

Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and
nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ?

I'm fairly certain American pilots would, if they were in a 9/11 type
scenario or had a good reason to think they were faced with one- i.e.,
you have a hijacked airliner that's heading for a major city. I
remember reading an Aviation Leak article that interviewed the two
F-16 pilots who were scrambled to intercept Flight 93 short of
Washington- one had no ordinance whatsoever, the other had half a
magazine of 20mm. Their plan was for the first guy to empty his gun
into the airliner, and if that didn't work the wingman was going to
try to ram it. Thanks to the heroics of the Flight 93 passengers they
never had to put that plan into action, but both of them seemed
completely convinced that they would have gone through with it if
required.

I can agree on this (and both pilots, esp. the Wingman) but back then
these was desperate measures under exceptional circumstances. Another
thing is actually planning & ordering the deliberate killing of
civilian, many of them citizens of the same country of the AF involved
(I keep this on the general perspective) this is the major military
Ethic issue I refer.... I'm sure many air forces have contingency plans
on this, but that the orders will be given and carried, is a really big
unknown;
And if in the aftermath is ascertained that was a false alarm, (that is,
the a/c wasn't hijacked and/or the hijackers has no intention to use the
a/c as weapon) the morale of the entire AF involved is guaranteed to
plummet to the very low, esp. of the people more or less directly
involved in giving executing that order.


Certain Air Forces (surely the Japanese) can accept this, with the
ultimate sacrifice (It's fully conceivable that a Japanese Pilot with
this order choose to wilco it ramming the hijacked a/c, atoning his act
with his sacrifice (and place in the Yasukuni shrine..) but about many
other A/F & their pilots & aircrews ?

I'm not sure you can assume most Japanese pilots would feel that way-
Yasukuni is still very much bound up with the rest of pre-WWII style
militarism in Japan, and tends to be the province of the far political
right more than a universal cultural icon. No doubt there are a good
number of Japanese pilots who would feel that way but I wouldn't
assume that JASDF pilots as a whole would be any more or less
conflicted than any other air force's pilots. If we were discussing a
similar scenario in the 1930s or early 40s, I might go along with you.

You seems to dismiss the culture & mindset of Japanese (and Eastern
people in general) whose are much more inclined towards self-sacrifice,
Divine Wind or not (think about deaths caused by overwork (seems to me
that in Japanese is called "kuroshi", but I'm not sure...)

It's a rather loaded issue in Military Ethic, I fear....


Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

On Feb 2, 4:55*pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote:
Jeff Dougherty ha scritto:



On Feb 1, 10:18 pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote:

Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and
nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ?

I'm fairly certain American pilots would, if they were in a 9/11 type
scenario or had a good reason to think they were faced with one- i.e.,
you have a hijacked airliner that's heading for a major city. *I
remember reading an Aviation Leak article that interviewed the two
F-16 pilots who were scrambled to intercept Flight 93 short of
Washington- one had no ordinance whatsoever, the other had half a
magazine of 20mm. *Their plan was for the first guy to empty his gun
into the airliner, and if that didn't work the wingman was going to
try to ram it. *Thanks to the heroics of the Flight 93 passengers they
never had to put that plan into action, but both of them seemed
completely convinced that they would have gone through with it if
required.

I can agree on this (and both pilots, esp. the Wingman) but back then
these was desperate measures under exceptional circumstances. Another
thing is actually planning & ordering the deliberate killing of
civilian, many of them citizens of the same country of the AF involved
(I keep this on the general perspective) this is the major military
Ethic issue I refer.... I'm sure many air forces have contingency plans
on this, but that the orders will be given and carried, is a really big
unknown;
And if in the aftermath is ascertained that was a false alarm, (that is,
the a/c wasn't hijacked and/or the hijackers has no intention to use the
a/c as weapon) the morale of the entire AF involved is guaranteed to
plummet to the very low, esp. of the people more or less directly
involved in giving executing that order.

I don't think it's an unknown at all. We know that two more-or-less
random pilots were willing to down an airliner on 9/11 without having
*any* time to absorb the concept that a passenger plane could be used
as a weapon. That seems to suggest rather strongly that USAF pilots
in general would be willing to carry out orders to down an airliner in
a "new 9/11" scenario, which is what you were talking about above, and
I'm not aware of anything that would make me think pilots from other
air forces would act differently.

I'm not sure how either of the "false alarm" scenarios would happen
either. There have been several cases since 9/11 where airliners have
mistakenly squawked 7700, but it's always been sorted out- the flight
crew would have to accidentally trip the hijack switch, accidentally
fail to answer repeated calls from ATC, and then fail to notice the
very concerned F-16 driver flying formation lead on them and letting
them see some real Sidewinders. Not that it couldn't happen ever, but
if it does it takes so many coincidences it's almost an act of God.
As for the hijackers not planning to use the plane as a weapon, how
would you know that at the time? (Remember, the 9/11 hijackers told
the passengers aboard their planes that they were returning to their
origin airports.) You have to assume that the plane full of fellow
citizens is about to be used to kill thousands of fellow citizens on
the ground. And even if it turns out months later they were planning
a hostage play...well, then the pilot would have made the best call he
could based on capabilities, not intentions.

(Anyone planning an airline hostage play in today's world would be
well advised to plan their takeover to happen while the airplane's
over nothing in particular and to have a landing field scouted out in
the middle of nowhere. If you take over an airplane these days and
ask to be diverted near a major city, I wouldn't count on getting
there.)

Certain Air Forces (surely the Japanese) can accept this, with the
ultimate sacrifice (It's fully conceivable that a Japanese Pilot with
this order choose to wilco it ramming the hijacked a/c, atoning his act
with his sacrifice (and place in the Yasukuni shrine..) but about many
other A/F & their pilots & aircrews ?

I'm not sure you can assume most Japanese pilots would feel that way-
Yasukuni is still very much bound up with the rest of pre-WWII style
militarism in Japan, and tends to be the province of the far political
right more than a universal cultural icon. *No doubt there are a good
number of Japanese pilots who would feel that way but I wouldn't
assume that JASDF pilots as a whole would be any more or less
conflicted than any other air force's pilots. *If we were discussing a
similar scenario in the 1930s or early 40s, I might go along with you.

You seems to dismiss the culture & mindset of Japanese (and Eastern
people in general) whose are much more inclined towards self-sacrifice,
Divine Wind or not (think about deaths caused by overwork (seems to me
that in Japanese is called "kuroshi", but I'm not sure...)

I'm quite aware of Japan's cultural distinctness, I just think you're
overgeneralizing. The scenario you posited could certainly happen,
but as with any culture Japanese people have a wide spectrum of
beliefs, and without some actual data I wouldn't be prepared to say
that a JASDF pilot would be more or less likely to fire in that
scenario than a USAF or RAF pilot.

-JTD

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

"dott.Piergiorgio" wrote in
:

[snip]

a/c as weapon) the morale of the entire AF involved is guaranteed to
plummet to the very low, esp. of the people more or less directly
involved in giving executing that order.

In mission control at NASA there is a switch that destroys
the launch vehicle should it show signs of endangering
the civilian population.
That protocol includes the manned vehicles.
Its a bitch of a responsibility but necessary.

IBM

Jeff Dougherty wrote in news:61f32a71-61f7-
:

On Feb 1, 10:18*pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote:

Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and
nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ?

I'm fairly certain American pilots would, if they were in a 9/11 type

In a new 9/11 situation the hijackers wouldn't have made it out
of their seats. The other passengers would disembowel them with
plastic cutlery and use their guts to tie the remains into very
small bundles. Some looney went nuts on a plane here recently and
wound up subject to the undivided attention of some very ****ed
off fellow passengers.
Anything that looks even slightly hinky around me gets reported
and I start looking for something to use as a weapon until the
cavalry arrives.

IBM

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:25:48 -0600, Ian B MacLure
wrote:

Jeff Dougherty wrote in news:61f32a71-61f7-
:

On Feb 1, 10:18*pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote:

Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and
nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ?

I'm fairly certain American pilots would, if they were in a 9/11 type

In a new 9/11 situation the hijackers wouldn't have made it out
of their seats. The other passengers would disembowel them with
plastic cutlery and use their guts to tie the remains into very
small bundles. Some looney went nuts on a plane here recently and
wound up subject to the undivided attention of some very ****ed
off fellow passengers.
Anything that looks even slightly hinky around me gets reported
and I start looking for something to use as a weapon until the
cavalry arrives.

IBM

The one all purpose carry on weapon still allowed is the big heavy
cowboy belt buckle. Slip off the belt and raise hell.

Sorry for the rant and the unrealistic scenario, but it just blows my
mind that only slightly more than a dozen fighters were on station.
Might as well phase out NORAD altogether except for missile defense
and retaliation.

TL

On Feb 2, 8:18 am, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote:
Trouble is, in a new 9/11 emergency, Pilots will have the will and
nerves to shoot knowing that they are killing also civilians ?

No.

That is the business as usual, USAF SOP, pre-9/11 thinking that got us
into this mess in the first place.

The terrorists have already ensured the deaths of the hostages and
that blood is not on the hands of our brave airmen.

Their job is to first protect as much of America as they can and
second defeat America's enemies.

MAD is perfectly acceptable, against a rational foe that values their
own lives. Against others preemptive kills will be required. Again
this is no fault, no crime and no sin on the heads of America's
warriors.

Now if Europe fails to back President Neo against terrorist states and
so forces America to take action to take out the danger (that is even
more acute for Europe simply because they don't got no Atlantic moat
for the limited protection that offers in a global world), then the
blame for the hundreds, thousands or millions of lives to be lost does
not fall on America.

-HJC