Winch Signals

On 9 Apr, 16:15, Nyal Williams wrote:

What have you heard? *Anyone have any comments to offer?

As well as the spoken and light commands I have used

single bat: bottom quadrant sweeps = "take up slack", top quadrant =
"all out", held above head = "stop"

double bat: same, with scissoring movements below and above for the
first two

no bat: rock wings = "take up slack", hold level = "all out"

As a winch driver I detest lights unless automated, because the
quality of signalling is dreadfully variable, particularly when people
forget the time lag in an incandescent bulb. I'd ban all light
signalling if I could. Bats are fine, as are clearly spoken words on a
telephone. "All out" just the once is fine, guys, you don't have to
keep yacking at me.

Ian

If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high
launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless they
are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of wind.
Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over a
hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield.

I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can
easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all
out' (faster flashes). My club did this years ago. Also we have two
lights, so that a stop signal is unlikely to be compromised by a single
bulb failure.

Derek C

At 20:48 11 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 9 Apr, 16:15, Nyal Williams wrote:

What have you heard? =A0Anyone have any comments to offer?

As well as the spoken and light commands I have used

single bat: bottom quadrant sweeps =3D "take up slack", top quadrant
=3D
"all out", held above head =3D "stop"

double bat: same, with scissoring movements below and above for the
first two

no bat: rock wings =3D "take up slack", hold level =3D "all out"

As a winch driver I detest lights unless automated, because the
quality of signalling is dreadfully variable, particularly when people
forget the time lag in an incandescent bulb. I'd ban all light
signalling if I could. Bats are fine, as are clearly spoken words on a
telephone. "All out" just the once is fine, guys, you don't have to
keep yacking at me.

Ian

If you go back far enough the stop light was a red light, this was fine
until it was remembered that there is no requirement for colour blindness
testing for glider pilots, let alone winch drivers. The only real problem
with lights only is the confusion between a long dash and the stop signal.

Without doubt the most efficient and safe way is voice radio backed up by
a STOP light. Clarity with no ambiguity




At 06:15 12 April 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high
launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless
they
are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of
wind.
Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over a
hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield.

I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can
easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all
out' (faster flashes). My club did this years ago. Also we have two
lights, so that a stop signal is unlikely to be compromised by a single
bulb failure.

Derek C

At 20:48 11 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 9 Apr, 16:15, Nyal Williams wrote:

What have you heard? =A0Anyone have any comments to offer?

As well as the spoken and light commands I have used

single bat: bottom quadrant sweeps =3D "take up slack", top quadrant
=3D
"all out", held above head =3D "stop"

double bat: same, with scissoring movements below and above for the
first two

no bat: rock wings =3D "take up slack", hold level =3D "all out"

As a winch driver I detest lights unless automated, because the
quality of signalling is dreadfully variable, particularly when people
forget the time lag in an incandescent bulb. I'd ban all light
signalling if I could. Bats are fine, as are clearly spoken words on a
telephone. "All out" just the once is fine, guys, you don't have to
keep yacking at me.

Ian

On 12 Apr, 11:15, Don Johnstone wrote:
If you go back far enough the stop light was a red light, this was fine
until it was remembered that there is no requirement for colour blindness
testing for glider pilots, let alone winch drivers. The only real problem
with lights only is the confusion between a long dash and the stop signal.

I think there are worse problems - mainly the need for the person
pressing the button to know (a) what signal he is trying to give and
(b) how the light system reacts to the button being pressed.

Talking of blindness, though, I used to get launched by a blind winch
driver - or at least by one whose eyesight was so bad that he
certainly couldn't see the cable and could barely see the glider.
"Exciting" was one word for it.

Ian

On 12 Apr, 07:15, Derek Copeland wrote:
If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high
launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless they
are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of wind.
Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over a
hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield.

Indeed. In which case radio or telephone should be used.

I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can
easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all
out' (faster flashes).

Anyone signalling to the winch should, I think, be obliged to spend
some time at the business end to see what the winch driver can see,
and appreciate what's needed and what the limitations of a particular
system are.

To give an example, I was winching at one club where the signaller had
been told (by a BGA instructor no less) to give the "all out" as a
series of fast flashes - 2 per second or thereabouts. The signalling
lamp was incandescent, which meant that the signal emerged as a
slightly fluctuating dim blur. So I interpreted it as a "stop" and cut
the power at once (ie right at the beginning of the ground run). After
a certain amount of re-education we were able to proceed in rather
greater safety.

Ian

The signalling lights at our site are located on the top deck of a double
decker bus, so you can still see then over the hump.

In the UK there are only about 3 commonly available gliding frequencies,
and some gliding clubs are not that far apart. I could well imagine trying
to launch a glider on instructions that come from another club! Also winch
launching (and speed calls) would tie up a frequency that is often
required for other purposes.

Land lines have been tried in the UK, but it has been reported that they
were chewed through by rats, rabbits, sheep and other assorted critters.
even when buried in the ground. And yes I know that the Germans have to
use this system by the decree of the LBA. How do they avoid critter
damage?

Derek C

At 10:31 12 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 12 Apr, 07:15, Derek Copeland wrote:
If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high
launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless
they
are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of
wind.
Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over
a
hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield.

Indeed. In which case radio or telephone should be used.

I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can
easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all
out' (faster flashes).

Anyone signalling to the winch should, I think, be obliged to spend
some time at the business end to see what the winch driver can see,
and appreciate what's needed and what the limitations of a particular
system are.

To give an example, I was winching at one club where the signaller had
been told (by a BGA instructor no less) to give the "all out" as a
series of fast flashes - 2 per second or thereabouts. The signalling
lamp was incandescent, which meant that the signal emerged as a
slightly fluctuating dim blur. So I interpreted it as a "stop" and cut
the power at once (ie right at the beginning of the ground run). After
a certain amount of re-education we were able to proceed in rather
greater safety.

Ian

On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 12:45:02 +0000, Del C wrote:

In the UK there are only about 3 commonly available gliding frequencies,
and some gliding clubs are not that far apart. I could well imagine
trying to launch a glider on instructions that come from another club!
Also winch launching (and speed calls) would tie up a frequency that is
often required for other purposes.

Our ground operations are managed on a dedicated frequency - I've never
heard any other traffic on it. No, I don't know what the frequency is
except its almost certainly outside the air band. We have a separate set
of handhelds which are locked to this frequency and don't have a
frequency display or a channel switch. I have no idea how we got the
frequency allocated.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 12 Apr, 13:45, Del C wrote:

In the UK there are only about 3 commonly available gliding frequencies,
and some gliding clubs are not that far apart. I could well imagine trying
to launch a glider on instructions that come from another club! Also winch
launching (and speed calls) would tie up a frequency that is often
required for other purposes.

No need to use an airband frequency for the job.

Land lines have been tried in the UK, but it has been reported that they
were chewed through by rats, rabbits, sheep and *other assorted critters.
even when buried in the ground. And yes I know that the Germans have to
use this system by the decree of the LBA. How do they avoid critter
damage?

As far as I know, my current club hasn't had any significant problems
with this. Mind you, I think the telephone cable may be proper
armoured stuff.

Ian

On Apr 12, 7:15*am, Derek Copeland wrote:
Also we have two
lights, so that a stop signal is unlikely to be compromised by a single
bulb failure.

When I'm winching, I'm grateful that we have three lights:
* two for the normal up slack and all out
* stop = all three lights on continuously
I find I process that extra visual cue noticably faster than the
difference
between stop and the other signals. One day that half second might be
important.

We also have a buzzer that sounds in sync with the lights. I find
that useful confirmation of what I can see.