Spitfire Controls

Anyone out there that has flown or been in the cockpit of a
Supermarine Spitfire? I am wondering about the circular control
"handle" particular to the British fighter and how it seems to me that
it would have been quite awkward or uncomfortable to use (compared to
a conventional fighter stick) especially in a dogfighting situation
(i.e. when manuvering and firing guns at the same time). Due to the
placement of the triggers, the pilot would apparently need to grip the
handle with his right hand at the top of the circle (at the 12 o'clock
position) and fire using his thumb. I would think this would get
tiring on the wrist and perhaps make precision aiming difficult. So
what's it really like? I am unable to tell exaclty from pictures, but
are there seperate triggers to fire the cannons only, the machine guns
only, and both the cannons and MGs at the same time?

Also, is it true that the prop pitch/rpm control was automatic on the
Spit, so the pilot did not have to worry about it during a dogfight
unlike most other allied prop-fighters? I believe the German fighters
(109 & 190) also had automatic control of this function. I've only
flown a couple fixed-pitch propellor Cessna's in my life, but I'd
imagine having to simultaneously manage both the engine throttle and
propellor pitch/rpm during a dogfight would be somewhat of a heavy
workload for the pilot, so in this respect I gather the Spitfire would
have been easier to control than most other prop-fighters.

It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
IX, and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA

In article , N329DF
writes
It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
IX,

Nice!

and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA


At one point, RAF fighter pilots were advised to keep both hands on the
control column while firing - a spade handle made this easy, as was
applying a lot of control force when necessary. Plus it was
ambidextrous (did I spell that ok?) and easy to swap hands quickly
without having to overlap fingers (and trapping glove leather; very
annoying...). It also made it very easy to operate a stick-mounted
brake handle as this could be mounted to pivot side-to-side rather than
front-to-back - very natural to the fingers.

All in all, I wonder why we stopped using them - didn't look flash
enough for the export market I suppose...

By way of comparison I have an early Harrier control column handle. It
is ergonomic hell - hard to reach some controls and difficult to use
without pressing things you don't want to press.

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types - you
can really apply torque and pressure in comfort. Suspect the spade
handle shared some of these ergonomic characteristics.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types -

I inherited one of these from my father, though spherical is not how I
would describe the handle. More an elongated oval, made of wood, with
a metal top to defend it from the inevitable carpenter who would use
it as a chisel.

It was older than 30 years, however. My father bought his tools in the
late 1930s / early 1940s. My son-in-law still uses some of them.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

In article , Cub Driver
writes

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types -

I inherited one of these from my father, though spherical is not how I
would describe the handle. More an elongated oval, made of wood, with
a metal top to defend it from the inevitable carpenter who would use
it as a chisel.

This one was a modern plastic type with ratchet and interchangeable tips
- must have been an early one to feature these.

It was older than 30 years, however. My father bought his tools in the
late 1930s / early 1940s. My son-in-law still uses some of them.

My uncle left me a tool chest full of woodworking gear - I may get
around to doing a bit of whittling sometime...carve a couple of those
big scale model P-51s and Spitfires...

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

I laughed out loud at your decription of the Harrier stick. It took a few
minutes for me to figure out how to hold the bloomin' thing when I first saw
it. Over time I came to love flying the jet even with all its British
peculiarities (among the others -- pushbuttons for "undercarriage" extension
and retraction).

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

"Dave Eadsforth" wrote in message
...
In article , N329DF
writes
It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I
can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and
Spitfire TR
IX,

Nice!

and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA


At one point, RAF fighter pilots were advised to keep both hands on the
control column while firing - a spade handle made this easy, as was
applying a lot of control force when necessary. Plus it was
ambidextrous (did I spell that ok?) and easy to swap hands quickly
without having to overlap fingers (and trapping glove leather; very
annoying...). It also made it very easy to operate a stick-mounted
brake handle as this could be mounted to pivot side-to-side rather than
front-to-back - very natural to the fingers.

All in all, I wonder why we stopped using them - didn't look flash
enough for the export market I suppose...

By way of comparison I have an early Harrier control column handle. It
is ergonomic hell - hard to reach some controls and difficult to use
without pressing things you don't want to press.

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types - you
can really apply torque and pressure in comfort. Suspect the spade
handle shared some of these ergonomic characteristics.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

In article et,
Frijoles writes
I laughed out loud at your decription of the Harrier stick. It took a few
minutes for me to figure out how to hold the bloomin' thing when I first saw
it.

An octopus would probably get on okay with it...

Over time I came to love flying the jet even with all its British
peculiarities (among the others -- pushbuttons for "undercarriage" extension
and retraction).

The early Spitfires featured a lever that moved 90 degrees to operate
the undercarriage hydraulics, but it invited disaster. The lever had to
be swung downwards and then it would automatically snap itself back into
the locking notch. The pilot had to resist the temptation to help the
lever back into the locking notch as this cut off the hydraulic pressure
while the wheels were still coming down. Quite a few novices did try to
land with wheels hardly out of the housings.

So the buttons are there to make things simple!

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

SNIP old stuff

A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
around now...

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

Dave Eadsforth wrote:

In article et,
Frijoles writes

snip

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

SNIP old stuff

A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
around now...

Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
the spade grip.

Guy

N329DF wrote:
It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
IX, and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA


As an addendum to N-6's original question..............

Did the stick move from side-to-side - or was it just the spade grip
that moved for aileron control ??

ISTR seeing pics of the stick in the central position with just the
spade displaced to one side.

I also assume the the whole spade/stick moved for-and-aft for elevator
control ??

Ken Duffey

In article ,
Ken Duffey writes:
N329DF wrote:
It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
IX, and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA


As an addendum to N-6's original question..............

Did the stick move from side-to-side - or was it just the spade grip
that moved for aileron control ??

The stick had a pivot at about half its height - the top part of teh
stick, with the spade grip would pivot. It's a neat solution -
British cockpits tended to be on the small side, and doing the stick
that way gave you more throw without your legs getting in the way.

ISTR seeing pics of the stick in the central position with just the
spade displaced to one side.

Well, the spade grip & the upper portion.

I also assume the the whole spade/stick moved for-and-aft for elevator
control ??

Yep.

SOmebody mentioned the Brake Lever, I think. That's an important
point. Unlike the toe brakes on aircraft produced by others, brakes
on Brit airplanes were activated by a single lever. It's a lot easier
to deal with with the spade grip.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster