Armed forces of an independent Scotland

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Jackie Mulheron
writes
In article , "Paul J. Adam"
writes:
Sure, but it means you get to pay for them (and most of the support and
TacDev is way down south,

Och I'm sure it won't be as bad as the constant Defence Reviews and
reorganisations we have in the UK at the behest of the Treasury.

It'll be worse for both sides.

Well Phil Hunt seems to think otherwise and is posting some good detailed
stuff. You don't think the MOD is a model of efficiency do you?

I heard a tale (was a guy in the RAF as well) who said that the fly past of
Tornados at the Jubilee was backed up with another equal number so
unconfident were they of their ability to stay airworthy.

Inspirational stuff along with a Tescos style supply system. Or is it
Morrisons?

meaning you need to pay again to duplicate it
if it's a hostile split). Balkanisation isn't usually a good idea (I
mean, _look_ at the Balkans - would _you_ want to live there?)

This isn't the Balkans. More sedate like the "splits" with Canada et al.

'Sedate'? The poster who got me into this argument was claiming that
Scotland would get what it wanted or start throwing Tridents around.

Well he isn't called "Auld" Bob because he's a sprightly adolescent. He's
pulling your chain (I hope he's pulling your chain!!!) and I doubt he will
be leading the movement for national liberation anyway.

A peaceful, negotiated separation would mean significant loss of
capability on both sides, but could be managed to minimise the pain. But
the scenario presented was simple thuggery.

It could also mean they just keep the institutions and have them as a shared
resource with some designated units and bases under some form of sovereign
control. Sure it could be worked out. Probably please the Marshalls and
Admirals as well as the two governments avoid annoying each other with
calling for those incessant reviews.

The idea of a British Isles Balkans is just the fantasy hyperbole passing
for
unionist political propaganda.

Why? Two elements of a 'former nation-state', one breaking away with
significant expertise and strong will, another determined to crush this
'minority revolt' having most of the big guns (and please, consider
something called the Permissive Action Link)

And unlikely to happen. Ghandi admitted that it was because the British were
essentially decent that they accepted the inevitability of Indian
independence.

Most of the countries becoming independent from London government did so
peacefully and with agreement. But their not as "interesting" to read about
as the the others. And in most of those other cases the violence was usually
an internal one which the British found themselves having to get through.

It's a situation to be devoutly avoided. If Scotland really wants to
break free, then I have strong reasons for both sides to sort the issue
out peacefully.

And there's no reason to believe it won't be.

But it was not I that advanced the notion of "if we don't get what we
want, we just nuke London".

Again that's just Bob. It would be a bit difficult getting to that point in
the first place what with having to storm Faslane, make sure the subs don't
slip out and have the people to operate them or know the codes to fire them.
(Why am I even considering such a ridiculous scenario???!!!)

Most countries go their separate ways quite
amicably. It's just that their stories don't make good movies.

Quite so. And as the son of a mother from Aberdeen and a father from
Perth, I'd devoutly hope that the separation would be as painless and
efficient as possible.

Just look up the Commonwealth countries in their site and the names of most
won't spring out as ones who had a "War" of independence. Where there was
conflict it was invariably cock up by the British in handling an angsty or
belligerent minority - Orangemen/Republicans in Ireland, Communist Chinese
in Malaysia, Hindus/Muslims in India, Mau Mau in Kenya or white
settlers/black nationalists in Rhodesia.

But that doesn't change the fact that some hard choices would have to be
made and the negotiations would get downright "frank and forthright" at
times..

Oh they'll probably be a few cards kept close to the chest but which
Scotland is willing to throw away. Could end up with keeping the present
organisation on a shared basis, or have leased or sovereign bases a la
Cyprus, maybe do away with it all and let London do it a la Iceland. Nukes
may be the sticking point but not that Scotland wants to keep them.

Careful there - the US might remember the Auld Alliance and decide that
Scotland is close enough to France to become part of the Axis of Evil.
Trying to auction nuclear warheads might get some unwelcome gatecrashers
(besides, most of the customers are short on manners, and might decide
that it was easier to kill other bidders than match their price, then
the auctioneer gets hit in the crossfire, and where's your profit then?)

Be a tad dangerous hitting us in the crossfire when we still have the
capability of delivering the goods for free.

Deliver them to whom? Scotland doesn't have a DSP network or any BMEWS
stations. You know for sure you just got hit, you have the mushroom
clouds to prove it, but whose hand did the deed and where should you
retaliate?

How could they do that when we haven't sold the good to "them" yet?

For that matter, according to some you've just auctioned off some
nuclear weapons to the highest bidder: how can you be sure they didn't
just use you as a live-fire test of their new toys (and to avoid having
the cheque cashed?)

We'd cash it first and do an Israel Dirty Harry style - "Did we only have
five to sell you or was there a sixth?"

By the way I was being facetious with the last comment.

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:07:21 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

There's recently been speculation in the media that UK defence cuts
ewill result in some or all of Scotland's infantry regiments being
disbanded[1]. If Scotland became an independent state, what
sort of armed forces should it have -- if you were appointed
Scottish minister of defence, what would you do?

4-6 fisheries protection vessels, alsae guid for keeping the damn
English away fra the wee oil platferms.

one of them Brewery ships sounds like a guid idee an all, fer keeping
the troops mora...morae.....spirits oop.
Now, are we goona join that Nato thingie or not?

If we are, then a coople of battalians of infantree shood werk well
fer yon peeckeepin roll, and we can gaw down and smack the damn
Sassenachs occasionaly an all.

A few MPAs (again 4-6) for long range patrol, plus C2 of any SAR work,
plus a dozen Merlins for both land and naval work (SAR, troop
transposrt, resupply).

If Bonnie auld Scotland did ever split, I see them (if you haven't
guessed I'm not a native Scottish speaker) more as an Ireland (minimal
forces except for peacekeping and EEZ patrol), than a Sweden
(extremely large and competant forces for the size of economy and
population).

Peter "Hoots Mon, where's me kilt?" Kemp

"Peter Kemp" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:07:21 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

There's recently been speculation in the media that UK defence cuts
ewill result in some or all of Scotland's infantry regiments being
disbanded[1]. If Scotland became an independent state, what
sort of armed forces should it have -- if you were appointed
Scottish minister of defence, what would you do?

4-6 fisheries protection vessels, alsae guid for keeping the damn
English away fra the wee oil platferms.

one of them Brewery ships sounds like a guid idee an all, fer keeping
the troops mora...morae.....spirits oop.
Now, are we goona join that Nato thingie or not?

If we are, then a coople of battalians of infantree shood werk well
fer yon peeckeepin roll, and we can gaw down and smack the damn
Sassenachs occasionaly an all.

A few MPAs (again 4-6) for long range patrol, plus C2 of any SAR work,
plus a dozen Merlins for both land and naval work (SAR, troop
transposrt, resupply).

If Bonnie auld Scotland did ever split, I see them (if you haven't
guessed I'm not a native Scottish speaker) more as an Ireland (minimal
forces except for peacekeping and EEZ patrol), than a Sweden
(extremely large and competant forces for the size of economy and
population).

Peter "Hoots Mon, where's me kilt?" Kemp
Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
Oirish! ye soondit mair lik aa Sootheron til me. Aiblins yo maun bi an
Inglis Oirisher? DARFC
--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
E-Mail:-
(Tak oot the wee dug tae send e-mail).


---
Aa ootgannin screivings maun hae nae wee beasties wi thaim..
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On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:29:57 +0100, "Robert Peffers"
wrote:

Oirish! ye soondit mair lik aa Sootheron til me. Aiblins yo maun bi an
Inglis Oirisher? DARFC

Just a pur wee English lad here (though my Mam is Danish). Nothing but
respect for the lads north of the Border though (and not just becasue
my Boss is one of them).

Peter Kemp

"Peter Kemp" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:29:57 +0100, "Robert Peffers"
wrote:

Oirish! ye soondit mair lik aa Sootheron til me. Aiblins yo maun bi an
Inglis Oirisher? DARFC

Just a pur wee English lad here (though my Mam is Danish). Nothing but
respect for the lads north of the Border though (and not just becasue
my Boss is one of them).

Peter Kemp
Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
The first thing to learn about scs is that our favourite sport is
leg-pulling. We never knowingly miss a chance. You are welcome here and we
don't really care where you come from. It can be quite funny for a while
when new posters turn up to troll Scots, for many of the regulars here are
from all over the World. More of them in fact than native Scots. Sometimes
it is a bit strange for humour in different countries can fly over the heads
of others. So, in Scots, "Cam oan awa ben the hoose an bide a wee", (Come on
it and stay a while).
--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
E-Mail:-
(Tak oot the wee dug tae send e-mail).


---
Aa ootgannin screivings maun hae nae wee beasties wi thaim..
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 27/06/2004

"Peter Kemp" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:29:57 +0100, "Robert Peffers"
wrote:

Oirish! ye soondit mair lik aa Sootheron til me. Aiblins yo maun bi an
Inglis Oirisher? DARFC

Just a pur wee English lad here (though my Mam is Danish). Nothing but
respect for the lads north of the Border though (and not just becasue
my Boss is one of them).

Peter Kemp

I'm intrigued. What possible other reason could there be?
A W-S

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:14:55 +1200, "Adam Whyte-Settlar"
wrote:


"Peter Kemp" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:29:57 +0100, "Robert Peffers"
wrote:

Oirish! ye soondit mair lik aa Sootheron til me. Aiblins yo maun bi an
Inglis Oirisher? DARFC

Just a pur wee English lad here (though my Mam is Danish). Nothing but
respect for the lads north of the Border though (and not just becasue
my Boss is one of them).

Peter Kemp

I'm intrigued. What possible other reason could there be?

The sheer mastery of the fast paced but brutal sport of curling, what
else ;-)

No, to be honest, after a few nights on the Isle of Bute one year
sipping pints of heavy as the sun set across the I've never had a bad
word (well, not a serious one) to say for the Scots or thier land.
Great place, great beer.

Peter Kemp

In article , Peter Kemp
writes:

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:07:21 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

There's recently been speculation in the media that UK defence cuts
ewill result in some or all of Scotland's infantry regiments being
disbanded[1]. If Scotland became an independent state, what
sort of armed forces should it have -- if you were appointed
Scottish minister of defence, what would you do?

4-6 fisheries protection vessels, alsae guid for keeping the damn
English away fra the wee oil platferms.

one of them Brewery ships sounds like a guid idee an all, fer keeping
the troops mora...morae.....spirits oop.
Now, are we goona join that Nato thingie or not?

If we are, then a coople of battalians of infantree shood werk well
fer yon peeckeepin roll, and we can gaw down and smack the damn
Sassenachs occasionaly an all.

A few MPAs (again 4-6) for long range patrol, plus C2 of any SAR work,
plus a dozen Merlins for both land and naval work (SAR, troop
transposrt, resupply).

If Bonnie auld Scotland did ever split, I see them (if you haven't
guessed I'm not a native Scottish speaker) more as an Ireland (minimal
forces except for peacekeping and EEZ patrol), than a Sweden
(extremely large and competant forces for the size of economy and
population).

Hell, why not an Israel? Bigger population and no occupation
commitments...unless you include parts of Lanarkshire and the Glesga Strip.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:34:39 +0100, "Jackie Mulheron"
wrote:

In article , Peter Kemp
writes:
If Bonnie auld Scotland did ever split, I see them (if you haven't
guessed I'm not a native Scottish speaker) more as an Ireland (minimal
forces except for peacekeping and EEZ patrol), than a Sweden
(extremely large and competant forces for the size of economy and
population).

Hell, why not an Israel? Bigger population and no occupation
commitments...unless you include parts of Lanarkshire and the Glesga Strip.

Small problem - to be an Israel you need to be beating the crap out of
the indiginous population (any Picts left?) and of couse get Billions
from the US to subsidise it all. I don't see the Scottish lobby having
a lot of power in Congress at the moment.

Peter Kemp

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:23:35 -0400, Peter Kemp wrote:

4-6 fisheries protection vessels, alsae guid for keeping the damn
English away fra the wee oil platferms.

Makes sense.

A few MPAs (again 4-6) for long range patrol, plus C2 of any SAR work,
plus a dozen Merlins for both land and naval work (SAR, troop
transposrt, resupply).

What're MPAs?

If Bonnie auld Scotland did ever split, I see them (if you haven't
guessed I'm not a native Scottish speaker) more as an Ireland (minimal
forces except for peacekeping and EEZ patrol), than a Sweden
(extremely large and competant forces for the size of economy and
population).

That's probably what would happen.

Though bear in mind Sweden spends a lower proportion of GDP on
defense than the UK does. The MoD doesn't seem to be into value for
money. Why do they employ more civil servants than soldiers?

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