General Zinni on Sixty Minutes

"WalterM140" wrote:
President Bush fulfilled his duty.

Bush clearly did not complete his military service. There is no dispute
on
that.

The Department of Defense at the time he left the service disagrees with
your claim.

And also served less than half of his combat tour.


Senator Kerry's narrative portion of his fitness report:

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG
Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in
river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one
occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were
taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and
ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in
routing the attackers with several enemy KIAs.

LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing
and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the
Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training
programs.

During this period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star
medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

18 Dec 1969"

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

Walt

I'm very old. You won't have long to wait. Take joy in that fact.



Hell, Art.

You're too mean to die. ;-)

Walt

ubject: General Zinni on Sixty Minutes
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 6/5/04 5:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

I'm very old. You won't have long to wait. Take joy in that fact.



Hell, Art.

You're too mean to die. ;-)

Walt


Aw shucks Walt, that's the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me. (shy
grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

WalterM140 wrote:

(Snip)

GWB did not "earn" a commission in the USAF. He didn't go to Officer
Candidate School, or whatever the AF has.

And his term was -six- years, not 4 1/2.

Just for the sake of accuracy, it wasn't a term, it was a commitment. Unless
the definitions have changed, terms apply to enlistments and commitments apply
to lengths of service. In any event, whatever you choose to call it, he didn't
complete it.

It's sad that such a person could be the CIC.






















Walt

WalterM140 wrote:
Yeah you are right. I am ashamed of myself with my measly combat record of

50

missions over Germany being no match for the no-show Bush who hid in

Texas

while the Nam war war raged. Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Is your own record the benchmark? If so the vast majority, including Al
Gore, Bill Clinton, John Kerry, etc. would not qualify.



Everyone hasn't done what Art did, but a large number (including Gore) did what
they were required to do. Bush did not.

I've never voted for a Bush, but I can't blame George and Bar for
getting their kid a save haven during Vietnam. Why waste a child in a
foolish and illegal war?

At least they didn't get him a complete exemption, as did the Cheney's.
I am amused, though, by the cynicism of those who brag up Bush for
zooming around in an F102. He wasn't a pilot because of his brains and
physical prowess. Had his daddy been a janitor in Harlem, rather than a
Repulican swell, he'd have been humping the boonies and dodging punji
sticks.

Cheers

--mike

Walt

In message , Chad Irby
writes
In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
How difficult do you believe it is to fill the fusewell of an artillery
shell with plastic explosive and insert a detonator linked to (for
example) a garage door-opener receiver?

Much more difficult and risky to your own hide than the example I gave:

Much less effective, though.

Making an RPG into an IED is much, much easier (a piece of
string tied to the trigger), and they have a *lot* of those.

...and somewhat more difficult than taking one of a whole lot of
leftover blocks of plastic explosive and sticking a detonator into it.

No fragmentation, though that's not hard to fix. On the other hand if
you've *got* shells... you have explosive and fragments pre-made and
just need the new fuze.

However, an RPG's warhead is measured in ounces and has a relatively
poor fragmentation effect: artillery shells have payloads of pounds and
are *designed* for area fragmentation.

But are very bad for portability and pretty much useless against
anything except soft targets

"Soft targets" like trucks, foot patrols, HMMWVs and the like. Most of
the troops, aid workers, local police and contractors in Iraq aren't
mounted in armoured vehicles.

So, again, what's your estimate of the number of IEDs found to date?

A couple of thousand, from what I've read.

Thank you (seriously). Are you still saying less than a "few dozen"
involved artillery shells?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

George Z. Bush wrote:

WalterM140 wrote:

(Snip)


GWB did not "earn" a commission in the USAF. He didn't go to Officer
Candidate School, or whatever the AF has.

And his term was -six- years, not 4 1/2.


Just for the sake of accuracy, it wasn't a term, it was a commitment. Unless
the definitions have changed, terms apply to enlistments and commitments apply
to lengths of service. In any event, whatever you choose to call it, he didn't
complete it.

Can you really blame him? He was the son of an important family with
important things to do. Paying Bush to sip around in a Deuce was a waste
of resources. There was no way that the Bush scion would ever find him
self in harm's way. Didn't it make more sense to use that fuel and the
airframe hours to train someone who might one day be willing to serve
his or her country?

Cheers

--mike


It's sad that such a person could be the CIC.






















Walt

On 05 Jun 2004 11:03:45 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote:
Senator Kerry's narrative portion of his fitness report:

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG
Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in
river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one
occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were
taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and
ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in
routing the attackers with several enemy KIAs.

LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing
and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the
Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training
programs.

During this period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star
medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

18 Dec 1969"

And, since you so like to quote the sources of your opinions, here's a
collection from Swift Boat commanders that you can draw from in the
futu


"We resent very deeply the false war crimes charges he made coming
back from Vietnam in 1971 and repeated in the book "Tour of Duty." We
think those cast an aspersion on all those living and dead, from our
unit and other units in Vietnam. We think that he knew he was lying
when he made the charges, and we think that they're unsupportable. We
intend to bring the truth about that to the American people.

We believe, based on our experience with him, that he is totally unfit
to be the Commander-in-Chief."

-- John O'Neill, spokesman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

"I do not believe John Kerry is fit to be Commander-in-Chief of the
armed forces of the United States. This is not a political issue. It
is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty and
trust -- all absolute tenets of command. His biography, 'Tour of
Duty,' by Douglas Brinkley, is replete with gross exaggerations,
distortions of fact, contradictions and slanderous lies. His contempt
for the military and authority is evident by even a most casual review
of this biography. He arrived in-country with a strong anti-Vietnam
War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for
his political future. He was aggressive, but vain and prone to
impulsive judgment, often with disregard for specific tactical
assignments. He was a 'loose cannon.' In an abbreviated tour of four
months and 12 days, and with his specious medals secure, Lt.(jg) Kerry
bugged out and began his infamous betrayal of all United States forces
in the Vietnam War. That included our soldiers, our marines, our
sailors, our coast guardsmen, our airmen, and our POWs. His leadership
within the so-called Vietnam Veterans Against the War and testimony
before Congress in 1971 charging us with unspeakable atrocities remain
an undocumented but nevertheless meticulous stain on the men and women
who honorably stayed the course. Senator Kerry is not fit for
command."

-- Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, USN (retired), chairman, Swift Boat
Veterans for Truth

"During Lt.(jg) Kerry's tour, he was under my command for two or three
specific operations, before his rapid exit. Trust, loyalty and
judgment are the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in
1971 in his grubby shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with
his slanderous lines in the recent book portraying us that served,
including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe,
will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their
families.

Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative,
disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that
you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'"

-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)

"Thirty-five years ago, many of us fell silent when we came back to
the stain of sewage that Mr. Kerry had thrown on us, and all of our
colleagues who served over there. I don't intend to be silent today or
ever again. Our young men and women who are serving deserve no less."

-- Andrew Horne

"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and river patrols
over a 12-month period, I never once saw or heard anything remotely
resembling the atrocities described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it
would have been my obligation to report them in writing to a higher
authority, and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry
actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as he
described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report them. That he
did not until later when it suited his political purposes strikes me
as opportunism of the worst kind. That he would malign my service and
that of his fellow sailors with no regard for the truth makes him
totally unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."

-- Jeffrey Wainscott

"I signed that letter because I, too felt a deep sense of betrayal
that someone who took the same oath of loyalty as I did as an officer
in the United States Navy would abandon his group here (points to
group photo) to join this group here (points to VVAW protest photo),
and come home and attempt to rally the American public against the
effort that this group was so valiantly pursuing.

It is a fact that in the entire Vietnam War we did not lose one major
battle. We lost the war at home... and at home, John Kerry was the
Field General."

-- Robert Elder

"My daughters and my wife have read portions of the book 'Tour of
Duty.' They wanted to know if I took part in the atrocities described.
I do not believe the things that are described happened.

Let me give you an example. In Brinkley's book, on pages 170 to 171,
about something called the 'Bo De massacre' on November 24th of
1968... In Kerry's description of the engagement, first he claimed
there were 17 servicemen that were wounded. Three of us were wounded.
I was the first..."

-- Joseph Ponder

"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination
missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and
trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the
morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and
yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on
his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from
one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry
had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I
do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably
said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for
that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom.

Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA after 4 months
and a few days in-country, and then he proceeded to betray his former
shipmates, calling them criminals who were committing atrocities.
Today we are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our
rules of engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of
Swift often did not even return fire when they were under fire if
there was a possibility that innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of
cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and the good intentions
of the men increased the possibility that we might take friendly
casualties."

-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)

"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some outrageous
statements and allegations... of numerous criminal acts in violation
of the law of war were cited by Kerry, disparaging those who had
fought with honor in that conflict. Had war crimes been committed by
US forces in Vietnam? Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet
Lt. Kerry have numerous speeches and testimony before Congress
inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what was only an
anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting men was an epidemic.
Furthermore, he suggested that they were being encouraged to violated
the law of war by those within the chain of command.

Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas Tech
University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo Zumwalt] and others
in his chain of command instructing subordinates to act responsibly in
preserving the life and property of Vietnamese civilians."

-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired)

"We look at Vietnam... after all these years it is still languishing
in isolated poverty and helplessness and tyranny. This is John Kerry's
legacy. I deeply resent John Kerry's using his Swift boat experience,
and his betrayal of those who fought there as a stepping-stone to his
political ambitions."

-- Barnard Wolff

"In a whole year that I spent patrolling, I didn't see anything like a
war crime, an atrocity, anything like that. Time and again I saw
American fighting men put themselves in graver danger trying to
avoid... collateral damage.

When John Kerry returned to the country, he was sworn in front of
Congress. And then he told my family -- my parents, my sister, my
brother, my neighbors -- he told everyone I knew and everyone I'd ever
know that I and my comrades had committed unspeakable atrocities."

-- David Wallace

"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them, and these men
served honorably. Up and down the chain of command there was no
acquiescence to atrocities. It was not condoned, it did not happen,
and it was not reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these
men including Lt.(jg) Kerry.

In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the television
audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and
in combat, were all villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one
hero from the Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of the
United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls one to think about
it."

-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired)

"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander at An Thoi, and my
tour of duty was 13 months, from the end of Tet to the beginning of
the Vietnamization of the Navy units.

Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in my
movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because the Vietcong
controlled most of the area. When I left, I could go anywhere I
wanted, just about. Commerce was booming, the buses were running,
trucks were going, the waterways were filled with sampans with goods
going to market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our
operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a formal
conference with me, to try to get more air cover and so on. That
conference never happened..."

-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired)

"I was in An Thoi from June of '68 to June of '69, covering the whole
period that John Kerry was there. I operated in every river, in every
canal, and every off-shore patrol area in the 4th Corps area, from
Cambodia all the way around to the Bo De River. I never saw, even
heard of all of these so-called atrocities and things that we were
supposed to have done.

This is not true. We're not standing for it. We want to set the record
straight."

-- William Shumadine

"In 1971, when John Kerry spoke out to America, labeling all Vietnam
veterans as thugs and murderers, I was shocked and almost brought to
my knees, because even though I had served at the same time and same
unit, I had never witnessed or participated in any of the events that
the Senator had accused us of. I strongly believe that the statements
made by the Senator were not only false and inaccurate, but extremely
harmful to the United States' efforts in Southeast Asia and the rest
of the world. Tragically, some veterans, scorned by the antiwar
movement and their allies, retreated to a life of despair and suicide.
Two of my crewmates were among them. For that there is no forgiveness.
"
-- Richard O'Meara

"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour
of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and
'69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The
John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is
portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from
him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our
boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man
like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to
be our Commander-in-Chief?"

-- Steven Gardner

"I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of
1969. My service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat
Lo, and nine months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. John
Kerry was in An Thoi the same time I was. I'm here today to express
the anger I have harbored for over 33 years, about being accused with
my fellow shipmates of war atrocities.

All I can say is when I leave here today, I'm going down to the Wall
to tell my two crew members it's not true, and that they and the other
49 Swiftees who are on the Wall were then and are still now the best."

-- Robert Brant

"I never saw, heard of, or participated in any Swift boat crews
killing cattle, poisoning crops, or raping and killing civilians as
charged by John Kerry, both in his book and in public statements.
Since we both operated at the same time, in the same general area, and
on the same missions under the same commanders, it is hard to believe
his claims of atrocities and poor planning of Sea Lord missions.

I signed this letter because I feel that he used Swift boat sailors to
proclaim his antiwar statements after the war, and now he uses the
same Swift boat sailors to support his claims of being a war hero. He
cannot have it both ways, and we are here to ask for full disclosure
of the proof of his claims."

-- James Steffes

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On 05 Jun 2004 00:26:48 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:


Don't let this pioot stuff go to your head. The entire purpose of a bombing
mission in WW II was to put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The
pilot was just the driver. And when it came to flying good bomb runs some
pilots weren't worth a ****.


But, then we found out that the good ones could do it themselves---

Ed, the Pilot, Navigator, Systems Operator; EWO, Bombardier, Radio
Operator, Gunner, and other specialties as required by the mission.

Lots of pilots can fly good bomb runs.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8