TV Interview With Pilot From ADIZ Incident

In article ,
"Jim Burns" wrote:

The "he was a passenger" is a cop out.

wrong.

What part of "passenger" don't you understand?

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

Along those lines.... I had a friend, a PPL, non instrument rated that had a
172, infact, he was the influence that got me interested in flying. Fully
capable of doing the PIC job, over 1000 hours at the time, I never had a
reason to doubt it, until one trip.

After I got my PPL and then my IR, we and our wives took a trip together,
his airplane, he as PIC for the whole trip. However, I also planned it,
both ways, there and back, and carried my charts and plates along "just in
case".

Before our trip home, he got the weather and filed VFR. I also got the
weather and noted the FA at home called for increasing cloudiness and
lowering ceilings.

We took off and headed out. The weather was just as forecast. Ceilings
started to come down, so he descended. Up ahead it was obvious that a lower
layer was also coming in below us. His solution?? "We'll just stay here
(VFR) between layers then circle down over the interstate and follow it
home." He couldn't hold altitude within 500 feet while we were between
layers.

That was when the flight became MY responsibility, even though I was not PIC
and was just a passenger, I became PIC and relieved him of his
"responsibility". I called center, filed IFR, flew the rest of the way
home, shot the approach down to about 800 ft AGL. Everybody agreed that was
better than flying 300 miles following the interstate at 800 agl.

Sometimes it pays to do what you can instead of just what is required. The
concept of PIC does not relinquish another person from the responsibility
they have to themselves and their family. The PIC is in charge of the
flight, no doubt, but I'm still in charge of me and when my responsibilities
to myself and my family conflict with another persons responsibilities as
PIC, I'd rather be prepared to offer the PIC alternatives.

Jim

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
The "he was a passenger" is a cop out. If you are a pilot, even a
student
pilot with only 30 hours, and you are in the airplane, why wouldn't you
do
everything you could to be prepared??

Perhaps because you understand the concept of PIC and take it seriously.
So
you understand that the flight is not in any way your responsibility; and
you have no reason to doubt that the person who *is* responsible is
capable
of doing the job. (Or if you *do* have reason to doubt that, then you
shouldn't agree to the trip no matter how "prepared" you are.)

--Gary

But I don't understand why you leap to the conclusion that the student
*didn't* take an interest in planning the flight.

I'll agree with you that I did jump to that conclusion. Some of the things
that I do automatically when taking trips, I am sure other people do not do
at all. I should not begin to guess what type of prep the student pilot
did. I guess two pilots planning the same route could get lost in
unfamiliar territory and neither realize where they were. I would hope that
two heads and four eyes would tilt the odds more in their favor, perhaps
not. What irritates me the most is that Shaeffer hasn't shown us that he
understood the complexity of the area other than the Camp David P area.
That relaxed attitude would not be something that I would want a student
exposed to when flying in that airspace. Maybe more will come out and we
won't have to speculate, you make some valid points.

Jim

"Bob Fry" wrote in message
...
I wonder if the student was going to try to log the time?

As what? There's no provision for logging time as a passenger.

They should bust him too. A real couple of bozos.

I think pilots who don't understand the difference between a PIC and a
non-pilot passenger should be busted and required to have remedial training
in the FARs.

--Gary

If they were willing, I think it would be of great benefit for a magazine
like AOPA's Flight Training to interview both of them and ask them questions
from the pilots, students, and instructors point of view, rather than just
the news media interviewing them from the talking head "you almost got shot
down and could have killed the President" point of view.

One question that I'd have is whether they had a current Washington terminal
chart aboard.

Maybe both pilots did everything they were capable of. Shaeffer has already
said he did.

Jim

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
That was when the flight became MY responsibility, even though I was not
PIC
and was just a passenger, I became PIC and relieved him of his
"responsibility". I called center, filed IFR, flew the rest of the way
home, shot the approach down to about 800 ft AGL. Everybody agreed that
was
better than flying 300 miles following the interstate at 800 agl.

Sometimes it pays to do what you can instead of just what is required.
The
concept of PIC does not relinquish another person from the
responsibility
they have to themselves and their family. The PIC is in charge of the
flight, no doubt, but I'm still in charge of me and when my
responsibilities
to myself and my family conflict with another persons responsibilities
as
PIC, I'd rather be prepared to offer the PIC alternatives.

Cool story! Good thing you were prepared and capable!

I certainly agree that it's a great idea for any passenger to provide
redundancy to the best of his or her ability. I just don't think it's
warranted to criticize a passenger for choosing not to on a particular
flight. Evem a pilot passenger might just choose to take a nap instead.

And (as I elaborated in another post just now), I don't think there's much
evidence that this student *wasn't* taking full interest in the flight. He
was doing all the flying; and he and the PIC have stated that they both
did
pre-flight planning of their route (between the Camp David ADIZ and the DC
ADIZ). But they somehow got extremely lost while trying to follow that
route.

--Gary

On Tue, 24 May 2005 19:22:49 -0700, "Jim Burns"
wrote in
::


One question that I'd have is whether they had a current Washington terminal
chart aboard.

That is the first question I'd ask also.

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
I expect any student pilot passengers that ride along on cross country
flights with me to at least show the initiative and interest to figure out
where we're going, how long it will take, how we're going to get there,
and
if we stray off course could we end up running into anything or possibly
get
shot down by F16's. If they don't want to do the work at home, we can do
it

I think Gary and Jim both got good point, but definitely the real experience
of the student pilot is an important factor. If he doesn't know anything
about navigation yet, maybe its ok, but if he does, he should have shown
iniciative to try to see the flight plan and see what's going on. At least
whenI started doing crosscountries, I became very interested in the routings
to take.
Now as a pilot, I always try to contribute positively with the PIC, and I'll
even tell him that I think to do something is a bad idea if I really think
it is. I know I'm not the PIC, but still I have a responsibility with myself
and my family and my friend, the PIC, to try to help as much as I can. The
fact that I am not PIC doesnt mean that I am going to ignore whatever I
think its dangerous just because I'm not PIC.

"Bob Fry" wrote in message
...
"i" == iflyatiger writes:

i Did anybody else watch the video ? He is claiming that the
i student was at the controls the whole time !! And when asked
i if he would do anything different next time he said he would
i have taken the controls and turned away from Washington.

i Does anybody believe this new story ?

I believe the pilot is a confused coward who, having screwed up, isn't
man enough to admit it, and instead is more or less blaming the
student pilot! I wonder if the student was going to try to log the
time? They should bust him too. A real couple of bozos.

Agree that blaming the student is the most coward thing to do. It doesn't
matter who was driving, but who was the pilot in command. If the airplane
had an autopilot, maybe he would have blamed the autopilot!!!

And just how was a student pilot to "assume PIC" when it wasn't legal for him to do so?

Using the emergency clause.

I saw the interview and the writups, and really cannot accept at face
value what was said. It just doesn't wash. But another possibility
occurs to me. I don't know how much time the other pilot had, or how
much recent time. But just suppose...

idle wild speculation
The pilot hadn't flown much lately, was very rusty, and knew it, and
wanted to get to wherever. He's not really fit to do it himself, so
asks the student to fly him. The student was interested in some CC
experience, but of course can't be PIC and can't take passengers. No
problem - the pilot can =be= PIC for the trip, and let the student do
the flying and navigating and such. (Aside from the possibly
inadvertent lack of currency of the pilot) this makes it legal.

They go off, each figuring the other is responsible for this or that
aspect of the flight. The pilot did most of his flying in the old days,
perhaps even before TCAs, but doesn't give the ADIZ depicted on the
chart its due (flying in a TCA area one just ducks under the tiers and
doesn't have to talk to anyone, no big deal, this other thing is
probably the same). The student hasn't gotten to this part of the
curriculum, and accepts the straight line that the pilot has drawn.
They end up where they are, befuddled, each for different reasons.
/idle wild speculation.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Sorry about that. I right clicked on the 'Play' button, and selected
'Properties' and cut out the URL. It should have provided the correct
URL to play the video, but ...

If you search for 'Pilot' on the http://video.msn.com/ page, it will
be one of the choices returned.

I finally got it to play. I had to use IE (no surprise, this is a
Microsoft site) and activate flash, and also sneak in from behind. Of
course I deactivated flash as soon as I finished. I hope MSN didn't
shove any "free" software on me while I wasn't looking.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.