Instrument Approaches and procedure turns....

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message news:PAm9b.464249$o%2.205992@sccrnsc02...
In article ,
Greg Esres wrote:

There ARE some ILS DME approaches out there (or were).

Aren't those approaches refering to DME for stepdowns for the GS-out LOC
approach?

I went to find an ILS DME but can't find one. The one we had locally (IAD ILS 1L)
doesn't have DME in the title anymore, but it does say DME required on the plate.

This was my point before. NALLS is not a DME fix. It's not
charted as one either.

It's still charted incorrectly. You can identify the fix using the
radial AND DME, but not the localizer and DME off of SNS.

And I suspect the ILS DME approaches that may be charted will
eventually be renamed to conform to the para 161.

They are being renamed, but it's in order to conform to ICAO
standards. The FAA apparently doesn't have an issue with the concept
itself.

Your objection to this naming convention, and mine, are not the reason
for the change, if you consider Wally Roberts to be a reliable source.
I'll quote the relevant sections from the thread, when I have more
time.

(BTW, the reference to TERPS is meaningless in this context, because
they're redefining what "necessary" means. So the naming convention
conforms to TERPS.)

Aren't those approaches refering to DME for stepdowns for the GS-out
LOC approach?

No, those approaches would have a note "DME Required" or "DME Required
for LOC minimums". (Or should.)

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:23:59 GMT, (Ben Jackson) wrote:

Aren't those approaches refering to DME for stepdowns for the GS-out LOC
approach?

Again, according to TERPS para 161, those approaches will be named ILS.
The DME required will be in the notes. (This is not the same as a straight
LOC DME approach -- you specifically said GS-out so I infer that the
underlying approach is still an ILS).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I went to find an ILS DME but can't find one.

I don't have the current plates, but maybe someone can check the
Durango, CO, La Plata, ILS DME Rwy 2, or the ILS DME 34 at Denver
International.

Providence RI has an ILS DME 34 approach. There is no outer marker, and
the localizer only
FAF is identified only by a DME fix. If you were to fly it localizer
only, you'd need the DME.
The DME fix also provides the altitude reference on the glide slope so
that you can confirm
your altimeter's operation (you do do that, right?). As I understand it,
it is the lack of any other
way to identify that fix (it is over water) that makes the approach an ILS
DME. Of course if you
have a GPS with that intersection in the database....

Greg Esres wrote:

if DME was required on an ILS (and that would be, of course, prior
to the final approach fix), that it would be shown as a "DME required"
note, rather than as part of the name of the procedure.

That's the way it's becoming, but, according to Wally, that's only in
order to conform to ICAO standards.

There ARE some ILS DME approaches out there (or were). Can you
explain how DME would ever be needed to fly final approach on an ILS?

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Looking at the latest Providence plates, they renamed the ILS DME 34
to ILS34 with a note saying DME required. I also note that the ILS23
and ILS 5 are also now DME required and that the LOM's are no longer
charted (they are still operational, but I suspect on the verge of
decommissioning since they are not charted). I understand it is legal
to use an IFR GPS for DME intersections if they are in the database,
but what about a VFR GPS? Does this charting change now make it
illegal to fly any of the ILS's into Providence without a DME or IFR
GPS on board? Does this mean I need to either install a DME or pony
up for an IFR GPS? Kind of sucks to have to put out $1000's to fly
into an airport I've called home for 10 years.

Greg Esres wrote:

I went to find an ILS DME but can't find one.

I don't have the current plates, but maybe someone can check the
Durango, CO, La Plata, ILS DME Rwy 2, or the ILS DME 34 at Denver
International.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Never mind, that has been renamed ILS 34 with a DME required note. The
ILSDME34 had a DME *or* radar required note. Now no option shown for radar.

Ray Andraka wrote:

Providence RI has an ILS DME 34 approach. There is no outer marker, and
the localizer only
FAF is identified only by a DME fix. If you were to fly it localizer
only, you'd need the DME.
The DME fix also provides the altitude reference on the glide slope so
that you can confirm
your altimeter's operation (you do do that, right?). As I understand it,
it is the lack of any other
way to identify that fix (it is over water) that makes the approach an ILS
DME. Of course if you
have a GPS with that intersection in the database....

Greg Esres wrote:

if DME was required on an ILS (and that would be, of course, prior
to the final approach fix), that it would be shown as a "DME required"
note, rather than as part of the name of the procedure.

That's the way it's becoming, but, according to Wally, that's only in
order to conform to ICAO standards.

There ARE some ILS DME approaches out there (or were). Can you
explain how DME would ever be needed to fly final approach on an ILS?

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:34:57 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:

Ok, I became motivated to find the thread. (BTW, turns out you weren't
in the thread at all, so you're not getting senile.g)

I will gladly accept your judgement regarding my lack of senility! g


The thread concerns the BTV ILS/DME 33
-----------------------
From: Wally Roberts
Date: 09/26/2001

As of 8/1/2003, the name remains ILS DME RWY 33

By the way, I don't have a dog in this race. I don't care one way or the
other whether they put DME in the title of the procedure, or have a note
requiring DME down below. I always look in both places.




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)