FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article

quote

time? In other words, if you blunder into Class C while talking to
Center on VFR advisories, either perhaps because they forgot to hand
you off or because you wandered off altitude and they didn't notice,
would you be ok, or would you be busted?

It means the ATC facility controlling the Class C airspace. Airspace
delegated to approach control facilities tends to be significantly
larger
than the Class C airspace contained within it. While Class C airspace
has a
radius of ten miles around the airport the airspace "owned" by the
TRACON is
probably at least thirty miles radius. If you're still on Center
frequency
as you approach a Class C boundary it's because Center forgot about you
or
you missed a frequency change
quote

But would he be in violation of 91.130(c)(1) in that scenario?

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

I had a bizarre experience a while ago along these lines. Had VFR
flight following from Bradley Approach into Hartford/Brainard.

Getting close to the edge of Hartford's Class D, I tried to get the
controller's attention to ask for a frequency change, but the freq was
busy and I couldn't break in. Eventually, I found a hole and he
turned me over to HFD tower, but by that time I was deep in the CDAS.

I had (naively?) assumed he had coordinated with HFD, but apparantly
not. I got the "call me when you land" deal, and when I called, the
tower controller proceeded to rip me a new one on the phone. She
didn't seem interested that I was talking to BDL. I pointed out that
I couldn't just drop off BDL's freq without permission, and she asked
me if I had two radios in the plane, and said I should have called
them on the second one.


Whether you could or could not just drop off BDL's freq without permission
would depend upon where you were at the time. If you were approaching HFD
from within the Class C airspace then, no, you couldn't just leave the
frequency. But if you were not in Class C airspace as you were approaching
HFD you were free to leave the approach control frequency at any time.
There's a requirement to establish communications with ATC prior to entering
Class D airspace, there's no requirement to establish or maintain
communications with ATC when operating VFR in Class E or G airspace.



I let the HFD tower controller vent (and mostly restricted my
responses to "Yes, Ma'am"), and nothing more came of it. My guess is
the approach controller just forgot about me.


If I had been approaching from within Class C airspace my response to her
would have been something like, "I was in communications with Bradley
Approach as is required by FAR 91.130(c), if you have a problem with that
take it up with them.", and that would have been the end of it. If I had
been approaching from outside of Class C airspace there'd have been no issue
with her as I would have left BDL's frequency about ten miles from HFD
whether or not I had been able to bid a hearty bye-bye to approach.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

I recall reading in FAA Order 7110.65, that it is the responsibility
of the air traffic controller providing Radar Traffic Advisory Service
to VFR aircraft to coordinate transition through Class B, C, D and E
surface area airspace, but I can't find it now:
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/


Perhaps I was thinking of this:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0201.html#2-1-16
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would
require flight within a surface area for which the tower has
responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport
in Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit
authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to
an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through
each area when in contact with a radar facility.


Yes, you were thinking of that, and erroneously expanding it to include
Class B and C airspace. Coordination of a flight through a Class D surface
area by the overlying radar facility is appropriate because the airspace is
small, the flight through it will take only a few minutes, it is typically
surrounded by airspace being worked by the same controller, and the tower
has no responsibility for separation of airborne traffic. Class B and C
airspace is probably at least sixty miles across and may be well over a
hundred, separation of VFR aircraft is required, and the controller at the
point of exit is probably a different person and may be in a different
facility.

"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in message
...

Does ATC even *do* VFR hand-offs to a Class D tower from flight following?


There really isn't any reason to. The typical initial call from the
arriving VFR aircraft to the tower includes all the pertinent information
anyway.

"Gene Seibel" wrote in message
oups.com...

I was approaching Rockford frome the north and apparently nicked the
very edge of Janeville Class D while talking to Rockford Approach the
whole time and Rockford jumped all over me about it. There is something
weird going on with those two.


The Rockford controller was in error. He was required to coordinate with
Janesville tower.


FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require
flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless
otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in
Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior
to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Radio Communications Transfer, Para 2-1-17.
FAAO 7110.65, Surface Area Restrictions, Para 3-1-11.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 7-6-1.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.

"G Farris" wrote in message
...

I've done that too - I would certainly not enter a Class C under the
pretext that I was talking to Center. However I've never had the
unpleasant surprise of not getting handed off in time. If I did, I would
tell Center something like "remaining clear of class charlie until
established with approach" or something like that, while drawing circles
in the sky.


Why tell Center anything? Just leave his frequency and call approach.

"Newps" wrote in message
...

Why can't I ever have this happen to me? I would let her go on for a few
minutes like you did and then tear her a new one. I know the rules and I
will tell her what paragraph to go look at in the .65.


What rule would that be? What paragraph in the .65 requires a radar
facility to coordinate the arrival of a VFR aircraft to a tower in Class D
airspace?

"Mike Granby" wrote in message
oups.com...

I guess the question is whether a controller's failure to comply with
.65 in any way effects a VFR pilot's reponsbility to comply with
91.130.


What controller's failure to comply with .65?

"Newps" wrote in message
...

But it would be legal. He has to either terminate you in time for you to
make contact with the class C or hand you off.


It wouldn't be legal. It would be a violation because FAR 91.130 requires
the pilot to establish communications with approach control before entering
Class C airspace. The Center controller should either handoff or terminate
services before the aircraft enters approach control airspace but there's no
specific requirement for him to do either.

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. com...

I didn't think one needed permission to change freqs (or anything else for
that matter) while receiving flight following.


You're right. If you can be there without talking to anyone you don't need
anyone's permission to leave the frequency.