Houston JS1c crash ONLY (not in any way about a Puchaczs, or anything else!)

LOL Dave ;-)!

On Monday, July 21, 2014 10:53:20 AM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, July 20, 2014 11:53:12 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:

...This is a very interesting side topic actually....



For heavens sake Sean! Stick to the topic!

*Houston JS1c crash ONLY (not in any way about a Puchaczs, or anything else!)*

All, thanks for the great info. As with most aviation emergency's (from a pilot training perspective), you almost have to expect asymmetric water and be constantly prepared for it.

PS: I left my plugs out in Perry this year on the first day. Fortunately we caught it very, very early in the filling process.

Sean

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:55:57 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
For the love of god, please discuss no other subjects here but the JS1 and this very sad accident.



Do we even know that this accident involved a spin yet? Any factual information? Did anyone see it spinning? It easily could have been a medical or a structural failure or rigging issue, etc? Has anything new been learned about this accident other than that the glider crashed and a pilot was fatally injured.



It is sickening to me when an accident happens. But I think its important to do what it takes to understand the cause and increase my knowledge. The previous thread had almost no value in terms of the JS1 or this accident and is clearly drifting off into the abyss.



I was very close to ordering a JS1c this summer. I would like to race 18/Open more than 18/15 as 15 is likely going to be handicapped soon. I have put a purchase decision off for a bit, but still have serious interest in the JS1c for the future as it is clearly very strong in both 18m and Open class around the world.



Personally, I think the JS1c is as safe as any other modern glider. That is to say that they are all high performance aircraft with massive wings, tiny control surfaces and a tendency to fly with aft CG most of the time, etc, etc (;-)).



I would love to hear other meaningful and relevant opinions about the JS1c as well as any updates relating to the cause of this terrible accident.



So basically, unless you have flown a JS1, own a JS1 or plan on buying a JS1 there is probably not alot you can add (or subtract) from this thread. Sorry...but true.



Sincerely,



Sean



Sean

On Monday, July 21, 2014 at 6:42:07 PM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:
All, thanks for the great info. As with most aviation emergency's (from a pilot training perspective), you almost have to expect asymmetric water and be constantly prepared for it.

PS: I left my plugs out in Perry this year on the first day. Fortunately we caught it very, very early in the filling process.

Sean

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:55:57 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
For the love of god, please discuss no other subjects here but the JS1 and this very sad accident.



Do we even know that this accident involved a spin yet? Any factual information? Did anyone see it spinning? It easily could have been a medical or a structural failure or rigging issue, etc? Has anything new been learned about this accident other than that the glider crashed and a pilot was fatally injured.



It is sickening to me when an accident happens. But I think its important to do what it takes to understand the cause and increase my knowledge. The previous thread had almost no value in terms of the JS1 or this accident and is clearly drifting off into the abyss.



I was very close to ordering a JS1c this summer. I would like to race 18/Open more than 18/15 as 15 is likely going to be handicapped soon. I have put a purchase decision off for a bit, but still have serious interest in the JS1c for the future as it is clearly very strong in both 18m and Open class around the world.



Personally, I think the JS1c is as safe as any other modern glider. That is to say that they are all high performance aircraft with massive wings, tiny control surfaces and a tendency to fly with aft CG most of the time, etc, etc (;-)).



I would love to hear other meaningful and relevant opinions about the JS1c as well as any updates relating to the cause of this terrible accident.



So basically, unless you have flown a JS1, own a JS1 or plan on buying a JS1 there is probably not alot you can add (or subtract) from this thread.. Sorry...but true.



Sincerely,



Sean



Sean
Hi Sean/everyone,

I'm currently giving serious consideration to ordering a JS1C. From people who have flown them I read nothing but good things about the handling characteristics. There have been some accidents but I have not been able to find anything about the root causes of them as yet. A few questions for yourself or anybody else who can answer:

1) Would you be kind enough to share some of the emails from owners as to their experiences with me?
2) Have the investigations into any of the accidents identified the root causes?
3) Have you gone ahead with your order?
4) Is the finish and engineering quality on a par with the top German manufacturers?
5) Is the inner wing section heavier than a Ventus 2cxt?
6) How easy is it to rig/de-rig?

Yours,
Jim

Jim,

I chose to by the 29. It was primarily an ease of use issue. I will buy a new glider soon. It's probably a wait and see how the Ventus 3 performs, availability, etc. Another huge question is 21/18 or 18/15. Another is jet? I would also suggest looking at the 18 meter HPH Shark.

Sean

4) Is the finish and engineering quality on a par with the top German manufacturers?+++++Yes, without question, it is exceptional.+++++

5) Is the inner wing section heavier than a Ventus 2cxt?+++++yes (for good reason, see paragraph 6); I do not know weight difference.+++++

6) How easy is it to rig/de-rig?++++same as 29 or V2 but the inner panel is a bit heavier. Heavier for two good reasons; (one) it is a very thin wing (which is good) and (two) it has to be stronger/heavier to support the additional span/load of 21 meters if you go JS1 C 18 and 21 meter tips.





On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 4:28:51 PM UTC-4, Jim Pengelly wrote:
On Monday, July 21, 2014 at 6:42:07 PM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:
All, thanks for the great info. As with most aviation emergency's (from a pilot training perspective), you almost have to expect asymmetric water and be constantly prepared for it.

PS: I left my plugs out in Perry this year on the first day. Fortunately we caught it very, very early in the filling process.

Sean

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:55:57 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
For the love of god, please discuss no other subjects here but the JS1 and this very sad accident.



Do we even know that this accident involved a spin yet? Any factual information? Did anyone see it spinning? It easily could have been a medical or a structural failure or rigging issue, etc? Has anything new been learned about this accident other than that the glider crashed and a pilot was fatally injured.



It is sickening to me when an accident happens. But I think its important to do what it takes to understand the cause and increase my knowledge.. The previous thread had almost no value in terms of the JS1 or this accident and is clearly drifting off into the abyss.



I was very close to ordering a JS1c this summer. I would like to race 18/Open more than 18/15 as 15 is likely going to be handicapped soon. I have put a purchase decision off for a bit, but still have serious interest in the JS1c for the future as it is clearly very strong in both 18m and Open class around the world.



Personally, I think the JS1c is as safe as any other modern glider. That is to say that they are all high performance aircraft with massive wings, tiny control surfaces and a tendency to fly with aft CG most of the time, etc, etc (;-)).



I would love to hear other meaningful and relevant opinions about the JS1c as well as any updates relating to the cause of this terrible accident.



So basically, unless you have flown a JS1, own a JS1 or plan on buying a JS1 there is probably not alot you can add (or subtract) from this thread. Sorry...but true.



Sincerely,



Sean



Sean
Hi Sean/everyone,

I'm currently giving serious consideration to ordering a JS1C. From people who have flown them I read nothing but good things about the handling characteristics. There have been some accidents but I have not been able to find anything about the root causes of them as yet. A few questions for yourself or anybody else who can answer:

1) Would you be kind enough to share some of the emails from owners as to their experiences with me?
2) Have the investigations into any of the accidents identified the root causes?
3) Have you gone ahead with your order?
4) Is the finish and engineering quality on a par with the top German manufacturers?
5) Is the inner wing section heavier than a Ventus 2cxt?
6) How easy is it to rig/de-rig?

Yours,
Jim

Sustainer (jet) or even self launch. If you interested in the new JS1SL (self launch), it will probably be available next spring. Many options to think about.


Another huge question is 21/18 or 18/15. Another is jet? I would also suggest looking at the 18 meter HPH Shark.

Sean

I recently wet through an iteration on what glider to purchase. I love the original thought in the JS-1; Antares and even the Genesis, however each of these companies only had one type of aircraft and so far 2 of the three are out of business. Look at what happened with LS series and the LS-4; LS-6; and LS-8 were all must have gliders. Glaser-Dirks went under only to be purchased by a businessman, but not really sure if they are selling anymore 800's or 1000's. If the manufacturer has not withstood the test of time I am not a buyer. I think the only two manufactures I would consider are Schempp-Hirth and Alexander-Schleicher. Just this reporters opinion. It is a shame that both the last mentioned manufacturers do not have any single place open class offerings. Schempp designed a beautiful open class bird, but was in bed with Lange and now the Quintus is dead along with Lange.

If you were wanting to look at alternatives to the JS1, then the LAK17b
is an alternative. Very nice glider, and reasonably competitive. The 304
is also an alternative, well made, sweet to fly but apparently quite
heavy and so not very competitive.

Youw have a number of manufacturers making the new kind of multi-span
gliders:
LAK17b in 15, 18 and 21 metre span.
Schempp-Hirth Ventus 2/3 in 15 and 18 metre span.
JS1 in 18 and 21 metre span.
304CZ Shark in 18 and 21 metre span.
DG800 series in 15 and 18 metre

Each makes different compromise choices - JS is aimed at winning races,
DG808 is aimed at autonomy and "touring XC", LAK is the swiss army knife.

Glaser Dirks seems to be selling lots of DG1000/1001 two seater for
advanced instruction. Their 800 model has always been targeted at the
gentleman glider pilot who is interested in a premium aircraft for
personal rather than competition mount.

So Schempp-Hirth stepped in and partnered with Lange. Last I heard the
Quintus was alive and well, and shipping beautiful precision
manufactured 23m open class gliders to discerning owners.
Schempp makes more money building lots of Arcus and Discus two seaters,
so I suspect the Quintus is a low production halo product.

JS focusses on the quality, competition success and sales volumes of the
a single class of gliders. They do this from a relatively low cost
location, attached to a University with substantial academic input. This
is a formula that has worked well for Schleicher, and Schempp-Hirth
before. Whether they can or want to expand to the rest of the market is
a moot point.

So - I think the manufacturers are all similarly sustainable.

So - the question is - what do you want to do with the glider.


Bruce
--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

At 20:28 13 May 2015, wrote:
On Monday, July 21, 2014 at 6:42:07 PM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:
All, thanks for the great info. As with most aviation emergency's
(from
=
a pilot training perspective), you almost have to expect asymmetric water
a=
nd be constantly prepared for it.
=20
PS: I left my plugs out in Perry this year on the first day.
Fortunatel=
y we caught it very, very early in the filling process.
=20
Sean
=20
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:55:57 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
For the love of god, please discuss no other subjects here but the
JS1
=
and this very sad accident. =20
=20
=20
=20
Do we even know that this accident involved a spin yet? Any factual
in=
formation? Did anyone see it spinning? It easily could have been a
medica=
l or a structural failure or rigging issue, etc? Has anything new been
lea=
rned about this accident other than that the glider crashed and a pilot
was=
fatally injured. =20
=20
=20
=20
It is sickening to me when an accident happens. But I think its
import=
ant to do what it takes to understand the cause and increase my
knowledge.
=
The previous thread had almost no value in terms of the JS1 or this
accide=
nt and is clearly drifting off into the abyss.
=20
=20
=20
I was very close to ordering a JS1c this summer. I would like to
race
=
18/Open more than 18/15 as 15 is likely going to be handicapped soon. I
ha=
ve put a purchase decision off for a bit, but still have serious interest
i=
n the JS1c for the future as it is clearly very strong in both 18m and
Open=
class around the world. =20
=20
=20
=20
Personally, I think the JS1c is as safe as any other modern glider.
Th=
at is to say that they are all high performance aircraft with massive
wings=
, tiny control surfaces and a tendency to fly with aft CG most of the
time,=
etc, etc (;-)). =20
=20
=20
=20
I would love to hear other meaningful and relevant opinions about the
J=
S1c as well as any updates relating to the cause of this terrible
accident.=
=20
=20
=20
=20
So basically, unless you have flown a JS1, own a JS1 or plan on
buying
=
a JS1 there is probably not alot you can add (or subtract) from this
thread=
.. Sorry...but true.
=20
=20
=20
Sincerely,
=20
=20
=20
Sean
=20
=20
=20
Sean
Hi Sean/everyone,

I'm currently giving serious consideration to ordering a JS1C. From
people=
who have flown them I read nothing but good things about the handling
char=
acteristics. There have been some accidents but I have not been able to
fi=
nd anything about the root causes of them as yet. A few questions for
your=
self or anybody else who can answer:

1) Would you be kind enough to share some of the emails from owners as to
t=
heir experiences with me?
2) Have the investigations into any of the accidents identified the root
ca=
uses?
3) Have you gone ahead with your order?
4) Is the finish and engineering quality on a par with the top German
manuf=
acturers?
5) Is the inner wing section heavier than a Ventus 2cxt?
6) How easy is it to rig/de-rig?

Yours,
Jim

I only have about 100 hours in a JS1c so far but the only negative things I
can
point to are the delay in getting the jet certified for use in Europe and
the fact
that rigging it takes extremely precises wing alignment because the main
pins
have no chamfering. The wings are 80 kg each but I use an IMI rigging aid
so
the weight is not an issue.

The build quality is fully as good as the German gliders. That includes
the
downsude of possuble minor issues on delivery as discussed a few weeks
ago here. My JS1 had a blocked tail tank dump valve. ( My Duo had a
disconnected TE tube inside the fin, my Discus 2cT had a tailplane
attachment knob inside the base of the fin). They are all handbuilt
machines.

The handling is extremely good, it feels both responsive and stable. The
low
speed handling is exceptionally benign and confidence inspiring. It can
be
forced to depart if you try and spins fully as do all its competitors but
it would
have to be seriously mishandled to spin accidentally. I am happy
thermalling
down to 45 knots IAS unballasted in smooth thermals. It is also extremely

comfortable for long flights unlike SH single seater cockpits which give me
a
sore back no matter what I try

The two spin fatalities are very hard to understand. I was present when
the
South African accident occurred ( launched in a similarly ballasted 21m JS1

by the same tug and pilot just before it) so I have given it a great deal
of
thought but I can't find anything in the handling of my glider to make me
think
that I am at any more risk in this glider than any other high performance
glider. A ballasted 21m JS1 is at a very high wingloading, higher than any

ballasted 18 glider, so that needs respect but it is a phenomenal thing to
fly.

John Galloway

I would second John's comments. It is a wonderful well-built glider and
it is both satisfying and easy to fly.

One tip worth mentioning is that it is well worth traveling to the
factory for the glider delivery as any minor issues can be sorted at the
spot before shipping. This is also a brilliant opportunity to fly the
glider in the wonderful South African conditions.

All of this also applies to comparable gliders like the ASG-29, they are
all wonderful gliders and they are all hand-made.

What I particularly like about the JS-1c is the attention to certain
design details. The Jonker brothers are pilots first and foremost and I
feel that this shows in the philosophy of their product.

Hope this is useful,

Alexander


On 14/05/2015 12:10, John Galloway wrote:
At 20:28 13 May 2015, wrote:
On Monday, July 21, 2014 at 6:42:07 PM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:
All, thanks for the great info. As with most aviation emergency's
(from
=
a pilot training perspective), you almost have to expect asymmetric water
a=
nd be constantly prepared for it.
=20
PS: I left my plugs out in Perry this year on the first day.
Fortunatel=
y we caught it very, very early in the filling process.
=20
Sean
=20
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:55:57 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
For the love of god, please discuss no other subjects here but the
JS1
=
and this very sad accident. =20
=20
=20
=20
Do we even know that this accident involved a spin yet? Any factual
in=
formation? Did anyone see it spinning? It easily could have been a
medica=
l or a structural failure or rigging issue, etc? Has anything new been
lea=
rned about this accident other than that the glider crashed and a pilot
was=
fatally injured. =20
=20
=20
=20
It is sickening to me when an accident happens. But I think its
import=
ant to do what it takes to understand the cause and increase my
knowledge.
=
The previous thread had almost no value in terms of the JS1 or this
accide=
nt and is clearly drifting off into the abyss.
=20
=20
=20
I was very close to ordering a JS1c this summer. I would like to
race
=
18/Open more than 18/15 as 15 is likely going to be handicapped soon. I
ha=
ve put a purchase decision off for a bit, but still have serious interest
i=
n the JS1c for the future as it is clearly very strong in both 18m and
Open=
class around the world. =20
=20
=20
=20
Personally, I think the JS1c is as safe as any other modern glider.
Th=
at is to say that they are all high performance aircraft with massive
wings=
, tiny control surfaces and a tendency to fly with aft CG most of the
time,=
etc, etc (;-)). =20
=20
=20
=20
I would love to hear other meaningful and relevant opinions about the
J=
S1c as well as any updates relating to the cause of this terrible
accident.=
=20
=20
=20
=20
So basically, unless you have flown a JS1, own a JS1 or plan on
buying
=
a JS1 there is probably not alot you can add (or subtract) from this
thread=
.. Sorry...but true.
=20
=20
=20
Sincerely,
=20
=20
=20
Sean
=20
=20
=20
Sean
Hi Sean/everyone,

I'm currently giving serious consideration to ordering a JS1C. From
people=
who have flown them I read nothing but good things about the handling
char=
acteristics. There have been some accidents but I have not been able to
fi=
nd anything about the root causes of them as yet. A few questions for
your=
self or anybody else who can answer:

1) Would you be kind enough to share some of the emails from owners as to
t=
heir experiences with me?
2) Have the investigations into any of the accidents identified the root
ca=
uses?
3) Have you gone ahead with your order?
4) Is the finish and engineering quality on a par with the top German
manuf=
acturers?
5) Is the inner wing section heavier than a Ventus 2cxt?
6) How easy is it to rig/de-rig?

Yours,
Jim

I only have about 100 hours in a JS1c so far but the only negative things I
can
point to are the delay in getting the jet certified for use in Europe and
the fact
that rigging it takes extremely precises wing alignment because the main
pins
have no chamfering. The wings are 80 kg each but I use an IMI rigging aid
so
the weight is not an issue.

The build quality is fully as good as the German gliders. That includes
the
downsude of possuble minor issues on delivery as discussed a few weeks
ago here. My JS1 had a blocked tail tank dump valve. ( My Duo had a
disconnected TE tube inside the fin, my Discus 2cT had a tailplane
attachment knob inside the base of the fin). They are all handbuilt
machines.

The handling is extremely good, it feels both responsive and stable. The
low
speed handling is exceptionally benign and confidence inspiring. It can
be
forced to depart if you try and spins fully as do all its competitors but
it would
have to be seriously mishandled to spin accidentally. I am happy
thermalling
down to 45 knots IAS unballasted in smooth thermals. It is also extremely

comfortable for long flights unlike SH single seater cockpits which give me
a
sore back no matter what I try

The two spin fatalities are very hard to understand. I was present when
the
South African accident occurred ( launched in a similarly ballasted 21m JS1

by the same tug and pilot just before it) so I have given it a great deal
of
thought but I can't find anything in the handling of my glider to make me
think
that I am at any more risk in this glider than any other high performance
glider. A ballasted 21m JS1 is at a very high wingloading, higher than any

ballasted 18 glider, so that needs respect but it is a phenomenal thing to
fly.

John Galloway