Buying a glider, advice on type and prices

p.s. you might want to ask the same questions on
uk.rec.aviation.soaring -its more UK-centric than r.a.s. - which tends to
be full of our ex-colonial cousins.

Originally Posted by Kevin Brooker

for he greatest investment in your soaring enjoyment, buy the absolute best trailer you can find. No issues and well equipped to make rigging so simple a child can do it blindfolded. Buy the trailer and fly whatever is inside.

This is condescending "advice". The guy quite clearly asked about a glider, not a trailer.

In reply to (re-ordering for clarity's sake)...

On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 7:20:26 PM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 8/30/2016 2:42 PM, It was written:
Aerodynamics isn't the issue - gelcoat failure can progress until it's
a structural issue.

In the spirit of seeking genuine knowledge - and readily acknowledging
widespread *concern* that cracking/flaking gelcoat can "somehow" morph
into a "premature" structural issue - can anyone cite solid information
(data, links, etc.) shedding light on the mechanism(s?), location and
quantity of UV-exposed plastic sailplanes thrown onto the garbage heap
after failing structural tests, etc.? It's a serious - not rhetorical -
query.

There's plenty of engineering data, as well as
"common-sense/observational data", around indicating UV is a catholic
attacker/degrader of all manner of materials, but have sailplane
manufacturers, or (say) the LBA, or anyone else, set about obtaining such
data for GRP/CRP sailplanes?

Hard data eagerly welcomed!

Bob W.


....On 8/30/2016 8:11 PM, Papa3 wrote:
Failed gelcoat absolutely "prints" down into the glass/epoxy substrate.
We've just refinished two gliders in our club which were left to go beyond
minor crazing to full-on gelcoat failure. Once the gelcoat is totally
stripped, you're left with visible lines in the glass/epoxy. Under a 4x
loupe you can see that there is an edge to these lines where there are
small voids in the epoxy.

Long-ago memory sez I/we saw similar "lines" in?/atop? the first cloth layer
beneath cracked gelcoat on our club's G-103 wings that we refinished
(mid-90s-ish). At the time, and under the supervision of a highly-experienced
plastic glider repair person/DER (with "hand-in-hand" signoff authority of an
FAA-blessed A&P w. IA), I believe their working conclusions (after loupe-aided
inspection) we a) the lines were in/on the epoxy only and did not extend
into the cloth; and b) the outermost cloth was a thin, fine-weave, layer
intended less for structure than to provide a "relatively smooth" underlayer
for the gelcoat to interact/bond with.

Does this materially affect the integrity of the wing/fuselage/control
surface structure? That's beyond my pay grade.

Gerhard Weibel's take is as follows (from the Schleicher Technical Note on
"paint cracks"): Owing to the UV-radiation the gel coat of the paint
surfaces grows brittle and shrinks; at the same time the UV-light destroys
paint ingredients. So moisture (rain, dew) working in on long term will
wash the decomposed paint ingredients out off the paint. The paint starts
chalking and gets hairline cracks owing to the concurrence of
embrittlement and shrinkage. Furthermore, these hairline cracks gather
dirt which through its aggressive effect and its stronger heating-up from
sun radiation further precipitates the degradation of the paint. Owing to
this the intended protective effect for the fiber composite structure
against moisture and UV-radiation is no longer granted.

Certainly a good care with hard wax can slow down the above process
distinctly, but it cannot be stopped completely. For this reason a
repainting of the aircraft will always become necessary at some point of
time. However, we point out explicitly that paint cracks - even deep cracks
- do not represent damages to the aircraft structure if as of their first
appearance immediate correct maintenance and care is given furthermore to
the aircraft. As all the outside skin of the aircraft is dimensioned for
stiffness, there are no critical mechanical strength problems, even if some
cracks have gone down into the fiber composite structure and have already
attacked the resin matrix base. The unknown ageing effects caused by the
influence of moisture and UV on the unprotected fiber composite structure
are more dangerous.

P3


Thanks for Dipl. Ing. Waibel's thoughts! Opinions from those with his
background and experience ought not be taken lightly.

As I interpret the above, his thoughts seem in alignment with our thoughts
"from the 90's." Paraphrasing: taking care of a ship's exterior finish is a
good idea if extending the life of the factory-applied finish is a concern.

The last two sentences of his second paragraph passingly touch upon the
question raised in my earlier post. I infer from the closing sentence, that at
the time his thoughts were put on paper, he was no more "structural life
informed" then than I seem to be today...though he also (and, almost
certainly, rightfully) had serious respect for the power of UV to eventually
degrade the structure...key word being "eventually."

I'd love to see GRP/CRP glider-based engineering data allowing
"even-semi-informed" inferences to be made as to whether "eventually" is (say)
one year, or (say) 10 years.

My interest stems simply from being by nature disinclined to worry about
"stuff" that can be safely ignored and that isn't simultaneously "good for
one's soul." If it's good for one's soul and pocketbook to "keep after" a
ship's factory finish, have at it! But don't agonize over structure if it's
unnecessary. Life's full enough of real worries without inventing imaginary ones.

Bob W.

OP, what do other pilots at your club fly? I would want to have a similar performance glider to friends with whom I might fly cross country, and advice from owners of the same type can be helpful. Who will maintain it, and what gliders is he most familiar with?

Potential resale is obviously important to you. In the UK Schleicher, LS and Schempp Hirth gliders are probably the safest investment. I was surprised at the idea that an ASW 27 would be difficult to sell. I think the opposite.

At 13:02 01 September 2016, waremark wrote:
OP, what do other pilots at your club fly? I would want to have a
similar
p=
erformance glider to friends with whom I might fly cross country, and
advic=
e from owners of the same type can be helpful. Who will maintain it,
and
wh=
at gliders is he most familiar with?

Potential resale is obviously important to you. In the UK Schleicher, LS
an=
d Schempp Hirth gliders are probably the safest investment. I was
surprised=
at the idea that an ASW 27 would be difficult to sell. I think the
opposit=
e.


Nobody really flies 15m class in UK anymore. For approx. same money
an LS8-18 is going to be a better buy and quicker sale.

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 5:15:23 AM UTC-4, John wrote:
Returned to gliding after many years and out of touch with types and prices.

Have narrowed it down to one of these types but nothing set in concrete.

ASW20, ASW27, ASW28, Discus, Discus 2 or Ventus.

Was originally looking to buy a lower cost glider but with interest rates being so poor, I am thinking that a good glider may be a better investment than money in the bank.

Any suggestions and a rough guide on prices? (appreciate that it ultimately depends on level of equipment and condition.

Thanks

Here is a wild card which will attract a lot of derision !

The Kestrel 19 is in an orphan class, but represents best L/D
per Euro. I owned one for 10 years, and I and several friends who
flew it rated it a very nice glider to fly ( except in rain).
it climbs well, is fairly docile, and does excellent short field
landings. I flew it for the first NA 750 km triangle thanks to the
cockpit comfort for 8 1/2 hrs.
The gel coat was schwabellac, less of a problem than later coatings.
May be easy to buy but hard to sell. Hardware support not known to me but there are many in the UK needing it.
Heavy wings, but there are excellent all body covers available for
1000 euros; leave it securely tied down and go flying in
20mins.

John Firth , an old no longer bold , pilot. Ottawa.

On Thursday, September 1, 2016 at 12:37:36 PM UTC-7, firsys wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 5:15:23 AM UTC-4, John wrote:
Returned to gliding after many years and out of touch with types and prices.

Have narrowed it down to one of these types but nothing set in concrete.

ASW20, ASW27, ASW28, Discus, Discus 2 or Ventus.

Was originally looking to buy a lower cost glider but with interest rates being so poor, I am thinking that a good glider may be a better investment than money in the bank.

Any suggestions and a rough guide on prices? (appreciate that it ultimately depends on level of equipment and condition.

Thanks

Here is a wild card which will attract a lot of derision !

The Kestrel 19 is in an orphan class, but represents best L/D
per Euro. I owned one for 10 years, and I and several friends who
flew it rated it a very nice glider to fly ( except in rain).
it climbs well, is fairly docile, and does excellent short field
landings. I flew it for the first NA 750 km triangle thanks to the
cockpit comfort for 8 1/2 hrs.
The gel coat was schwabellac, less of a problem than later coatings.
May be easy to buy but hard to sell. Hardware support not known to me but there are many in the UK needing it.
Heavy wings, but there are excellent all body covers available for
1000 euros; leave it securely tied down and go flying in
20mins.

John Firth , an old no longer bold , pilot. Ottawa.

If we're talking L/D per Euro the Nimbus 3 is well placed too.

Craig

On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 7:37:36 AM UTC+12, firsys wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 5:15:23 AM UTC-4, John wrote:
Returned to gliding after many years and out of touch with types and prices.

Have narrowed it down to one of these types but nothing set in concrete.

ASW20, ASW27, ASW28, Discus, Discus 2 or Ventus.

Was originally looking to buy a lower cost glider but with interest rates being so poor, I am thinking that a good glider may be a better investment than money in the bank.

Any suggestions and a rough guide on prices? (appreciate that it ultimately depends on level of equipment and condition.

Thanks

Here is a wild card which will attract a lot of derision !

The Kestrel 19 is in an orphan class, but represents best L/D
per Euro. I owned one for 10 years, and I and several friends who
flew it rated it a very nice glider to fly ( except in rain).
it climbs well, is fairly docile, and does excellent short field
landings. I flew it for the first NA 750 km triangle thanks to the
cockpit comfort for 8 1/2 hrs.
The gel coat was schwabellac, less of a problem than later coatings.
May be easy to buy but hard to sell. Hardware support not known to me but there are many in the UK needing it.
Heavy wings, but there are excellent all body covers available for
1000 euros; leave it securely tied down and go flying in
20mins.

Being basically a Glasflugel design (and not a Std Libelle) it should be well made, comfortable, and without vices.

Max L/D isn't everything, but looking at a few internet threads and spreadsheets over the years, it looks quite ok at a decent cruising speed too. The spreadsheet I looked at worked out to about 29:1 at 80 knots.

I helped derig a Kestrel a year or two ago.
The memory remains vivid. You need at
least four very good friends from the local
weight lifting gym.

At 21:14 01 September 2016, Bruce Hoult
wrote:
On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 7:37:36
AM UTC+12, firsys wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 5:15:23
AM UTC-4, John wrote:
Returned to gliding after many years
and out of touch with types and
prices.

Have narrowed it down to one of
these types but nothing set in
concrete.

ASW20, ASW27, ASW28, Discus,
Discus 2 or Ventus.

Was originally looking to buy a lower
cost glider but with interest
rates being so poor, I am thinking that a
good glider may be a better
investment than money in the bank.

Any suggestions and a rough guide
on prices? (appreciate that it
ultimately depends on level of equipment
and condition.

Thanks

Here is a wild card which will attract a
lot of derision !

The Kestrel 19 is in an orphan class,
but represents best L/D
per Euro. I owned one for 10 years, and
I and several friends who
flew it rated it a very nice glider to fly (
except in rain).
it climbs well, is fairly docile, and does
excellent short field
landings. I flew it for the first NA 750
km triangle thanks to the
cockpit comfort for 8 1/2 hrs.
The gel coat was schwabellac, less of
a problem than later coatings.
May be easy to buy but hard to sell.
Hardware support not known to me
but there are many in the UK needing it.
Heavy wings, but there are excellent all
body covers available for
20mins.

Being basically a Glasflugel design (and
not a Std Libelle) it should be
well made, comfortable, and without
vices.

Max L/D isn't everything, but looking at a
few internet threads and
spreadsheets over the years, it looks
quite ok at a decent cruising speed
too. The spreadsheet I looked at worked
out to about 29:1 at 80 knots.

On Thursday, September 1, 2016 at 5:15:06 PM UTC-5, George Haeh wrote:
I helped derig a Kestrel a year or two ago.
The memory remains vivid. You need at
least four very good friends from the local
weight lifting gym.


Rubbish. That may be your experience, but not mine. I one man rig my 604. You just need proper fixtures.

Steve Leonard

PS: The center wing section on the 604 weighs in at roughly 400 lbs. And with proper fixtures, you don't have to lift it.

PPS: The memory can't be too vivid, as you can't recall if it was one or two years ago. :-)