The next attack (On Topic)

It is too late to do what we should have done. We have to recognize that we
have to move forward now starting far behind where we could have been at
this point and that it is going to be a much, much tougher fight. We will
endure years or decades of chaos that might have been avoided and attacks
that might not have happened.

Where do we go from here? Whatever you think about Bush vs. Kerry on other
issues, looking just at the terrorism issue, we have to have a change of
administration. Bush had already ****ed off just about every friend who
might have stood by us and made America, the lone cowboy, an icon of our
foreign policy before 911. Then he compounded the damage by the way he
handled Iraq.

Most of the rest of the world is now hanging back from offering us help that
they know is in their interest because they don't want to help keep Bush in
the White House. He is deservedly hated in the rest of the world for reasons
far beyond Iraq. Maybe in the full spectrum of issues facing our country he
should be have a second term but, for a plan to deal with terrorism, he has
to go.

Bush will get more help after November if re-elected. The rest of the world
will be resigned then to his presidency and have to follow their own self
interest. It will still be grudging though. The French have decided that
appeasing and pandering to the Islamic radicals is their path to protecting
themselves from attacks. Probably nothing will get them in line. We really
need a fresh start for the others.

The next step is to build the alliances, consensus, and cooperation to
develop a worldwide system of deterrence and containment as a first step.
This is hard, tough, difficult work that pays not domestic dividends in our
sound bite culture. I'm not sure our electoral system would allow a person
with the wisdom and patience to achieve it to ever become or survive as
president.

This would lead into the even more difficult task of influencing the
dysfunctional societies to change so that terrorists are no longer a natural
product.

I'm not saying it's easy, or quick. As pilots, we should know better than
most that doing the wrong thing just because it is easier than the right
thing is stupid. I'm not sure the right thing could ever be explained to our
electorate or that a leader could ever survive long enough to carry it out.

If ending terrorism were building a house the discussion here, and in the
election, would be on the level of, should we be doing more hammering or
less. If you say you are in favor of 2% less hammering, you are less "tough"
than the opponent. Ergo, you are a weak livered liberal who will sell us out
to the enemy.

The real issues are drywall, cement mixing, insulation. Building a house
goes even beyond that. There are messy and unglamorous issues like zoning
board approvals, financing, and insurance. Bush didn't want to deal with any
of that so he just went out and started nailing boards together. We've got
to clear that shack out of the way before we can start on anything real.

Sorry to duck out of this interesting conversation at this point but I'm
going to be away for a few days.

Gotta go pack.
--
Roger Long

Sorry to duck out of this interesting conversation at this point but I'm
going to be away for a few days.

Gotta go pack.

Sure, sure.

Just when it's starting to get good!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Icebound" wrote in message
.cable.rogers.com...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:_8DHc.58326$XM6.36990@attbi_s53...

What *specifically* should the United States be doing to fight terror
right
now?


Forcing a compromise in Palestine.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, the terrorists are not interested in
negotiation or compromise of any kind, except as they can use it to buy time
and material for further attacks. They want Israel gone, not compromised
with. The same goes for everybody else who does not subscribe to their brand
of religion. They have absolutely no intention of abiding by any agreement.

Last word

I'm sure you aren't satisfied with my answer. It's like being a movie
critic. I can look at the film and see that the plot isn't consistent, the
acting is wooden, the wires show in the special effects, etc.

You ask how, in 200 words or less, I would make a great film. Well, the key
to much of that is in the unglamorous ground work. There are contract
negotiations to get the good actors, financing to afford the right special
effects, management of the relationships with the cast to that egos don't
intrude and the director can get the acting style to be consistent with the
story. The issues we face are even more complex than this.

I heard Matt Daemon talking on NPR today about how he spent six months
taking boxing lessons so he would have the proper walk and presence for his
next film. That's the kind of invisible ground work that goes into making
complex productions great. Eliminating terrorism from our world without
making big smoking holes is at least that complex.

Bush didn't want to bother with the groundwork. He proved in his former life
that he's lazy by nature and he wanted to appear resolute and confident. We
know that the pilot who rushes off into IMC with out a preflight or weather
briefing isn't resolute and confident. He's a fool.

To be fair, Bush picked up a situation in which the necessary groundwork had
been ignored for decades. Still, if your predecessors didn't do their job,
you still have to start at the beginning, not in the middle. Bush not only
didn't start at the beginning, he started (before 911) by taking apart what
little of the necessary groundwork had been done.

There simply aren't any shortcuts or silver bullets here. The first step in
dealing with any complex and difficult situation is being realistic. What
was that great John Wayne (I think) movie. A soldier asks his Sargent
anxiously, "You know just what to do, don't you Sarge?" Wayne says, "Son,
any man who tells you he knows just what to do in a situation like this is a
fool."

Look at all the great leaders, Lincoln, Churchill, FDR, etc. The common
denominator is their agonizing and questioning. There is no questioning or
indecision in Bush's eerie certainty. That's how I know he's a fool.

--
Roger Long

Look at all the great leaders, Lincoln, Churchill, FDR, etc. The common
denominator is their agonizing and questioning. There is no questioning
or
indecision in Bush's eerie certainty. That's how I know he's a fool.

It's funny, people used to say the same about Reagan.

Then you read his letters, and it's clear that he agonized over many
decisions. He just did so privately, choosing to show a brave face to the
world.

In many ways, this is true leadership. Keeping a poker face when the
stakes are high isn't always easy -- but sometimes the people need that more
than anything during a time of crisis.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article
le.rogers.com,
"Icebound" wrote:

What *specifically* should the United States be doing to fight terror
right
now?

Forcing a compromise in Palestine.

Even if Israel was wiped from the earth, terrorism will continue.



There is a rather interesting 1986 debate on the causes of terrorism at
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/86jun/obrien.htm

Recall that that was cold-war-era with the Berlin Wall still up.

Not sure why I'm bothering here, politics are a waste of time
talking about as we all have our 'platforms' and stand on one
side or the other and don't waver much. But....

So far I've heard a lot of hemming and hawing and monday
morning quarterbacking here. Shoulda woulda coulda,
whatever. But comon', a guy takes office (January) and
within 9 months 9/11 happens? And now they say they
wanted to do it in June, less than 6 months after taking
office? At times I think (key word THINK, unlike previously
stated "That's how I know he's a fool") he aint workin on
all 4, and the staff he's assembled around him are looking
more and more like a ship of fools. But to lay any of that
9/11 stuff on him is stupid. And what "groundwork" pre
9/11, or June 2001, had he taken apart? If you didn't vote
for him, feel he 'stole' the election, or just hate republicans,
be honest at least and let's try to solve this problem, politics
aside. And if you think an administration change will change
anything, that's laughable.

Like others have said, I'm waiting for Kerry to say what the
hell he plans on doing - and am getting sick of this "well,
I wouldve done things differently, blah blah blah." Oh,
really, thanks for that. It's not politically correct for him,
or anyone, to say that this is going to be something that
we have to be in for the long haul. I dont like the idea of
toppling regimes or dropping nukes in hopes of wiping
out the enemy, one just ****es off a region, the other, well
is genocide, you arent going to convince me all Arabs
are bad Arabs.

It's never "too late", at least not at this stage, talk about
giving up and being so damn apologetic for our country.
If some of our former allies don't like what we are doing,
right or wrong, screw em. This aint pre-9/11 anymore,
this is World War 3. Am I in fear of being drafted, no.
But my kids will be pretty soon. Do I expect this problem
to go away before that? No way, it'll probably go on for
as long as I'm around, which I hope to be a few more
decades. It's gonna be dirty and lots of covert stuff, and
mistakes will be made. Bring out the spies, snipers, and
assasins. And a whole lot better intelligence than we've
received lately.

......but like I said, this is a waste of time, and I really
don't care if you agree with me or not. (not addressed
to any one person or any one platform)

Chris

Icebound wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:_8DHc.58326$XM6.36990@attbi_s53...

What *specifically* should the United States be doing
to fight terror right now?

Forcing a compromise in Palestine.

We _have_ forced a compromise in the area you refer to as Palestine, for
over a half century. As evidence you will note that the Jews have not
removed every last "Palestinian" from their land by what ever means
necessary.

Had we allowed the Israelis to solve their own problems in their own way
there would no longer be a "Palestinian" problem, or anyone but Jews
west of the Jordan river.

The US has been one of the best friends that Arafat could ever have had.



Jack

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:21:41 GMT, Roger Long wrote:

The only way the US can win this fight alone it to seal our borders,
eliminate GA and everything similar to it, register and control the
movements of all citizens, monitor all mail and other communication, stop
import of most goods, and imprison anyone who appears vaguely different.

you are on your best way to finalize it. You are more than 50% towards the
goal.


Vaporizing the Mideast would also work but the fallout would blow around and
poison us as well.


Jesus ... is this all you have to say? "the fallout would harm you as
well?"

most of the people there (mideast) are struggling to survive every single
day, only a very small percentage of the whole polulation of the whole
world are terrorists.

many of your arguments are proving the terrorists and the radical islam's
points: the west always does (in a recless way) what they want. nobody from
the west ever said "please" or "thank you" or "I'm sorry".

what a shame.

#m

--
Michael Moo Fahrenheit 9/11:
http://www.fahrenheit911.com/

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:01:05 -0700, C J Campbell wrote:

There is considerable evidence to the contrary. It appears that Islam not
only sponsors terrorism, it is a way of life. More than 90% of the world's
wars are being fought in Islamic countries. That says a lot about Islam. All
the so-called 'moderate' Islamic sects and countries provide enormous
amounts of money as well as shelter and support to terrorists.

Quite honestly, I think that nuclear sterilization is an option that should
be explored.


and maybe this will be said to the kids in the middle east:
----------start
There is considerable evidence to the contrary. It appears that the
American idea not only sponsors Christianity, it is a way of life. More
than 90% of the world's wars in the last 200 years are being fought direct
or indirect with the support of America. That says a lot about America. All
the so-called 'moderate' western countries and American allies provide
enormous amounts of money as well as shelter and support the American idea.

Quite honestly, I think that nuclear sterilization is an option that should
be explored.
----------end

you get the point? no? I'm not surprised.

#m

--
Michael Moo Fahrenheit 9/11:
http://www.fahrenheit911.com/