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#32
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: How accurate was B-26 bombing? From: "Kevin Brooks" Date: 2/29/04 3:31 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: How accurate was B-26 bombing? From: (BUFDRVR) Date: 2/29/04 2:13 PM Pacific Standard Time Can we see some of your strike photos? Sure old man. To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my formation hit it first. Befo http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg After: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg This mission was very interesting...to say the least: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/b990514i.jpg The rest of my strikes to make "news" were JDAM strikes. The one thing you will notice is that mil dispersion pretty much ensures a few of your weapons are going to miss by a good distance, despite what you say. If you look at the Batajanica images, we threw a few M-117s out "in the weeds". We had anticiapated this because some of the weapons were in pretty bad shape. Unlike you, we realized that sending a loader back to get us some new weapons would have interfered with the "hustle & bustle" of flightline ops, so we pressed on. The runway was shutdown for the remainder of the conflict, although Eagle pilots flying around probably aided in shutting down flight ops there as much as our weapons did. Were you trying to make a point with your question? BUFDRVR YTHe point I was triyng to make was that we flew misison swith dumb bimbs that were sometimes as accurate as mision flown today with smart bombs. LOL! Nope. Accuracy is usually guaged by CEP. Getting a single bomb, or two or three, to hit the given aim point, while a laudable event, does not mean that your strike was inherently accurate--because the other 200 bombs ended up spread over a quarter section. Your CEP during WWII was abysmal compared to that which was evidenced during Vietnam (with dumb bombs). Modern dumb For a guy who spent his entire military career behind a desk in Ohio, you sure have a good line of bull****. Firstly, I told you before, the only military duty I ever performed in Ohio was serving as OIC of the funeral detail for some Ranger who wrapped his car around a telephone pole outside FT Benning. No desk sitting was required, as I was TDY from my post. Secondly, it is interesting that once again you can't bring yourself to address the points raised-- especially from that other B-26 bombadier who rather adroitly trashed your "we never missed" BS (we see you are still having severe problems with that whole concept of "truthfulness"). Thirdly, you plonked me earlier today (for about the third time)...you forgot already? Brooks Arthur Kramer |
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I am sure everything you say is true. But I stand by the strike photos on my
website which as you can see a lot of "shacks" were scored under difficult coimbat conditions. The photos don't lie How many B-26 dropped on the bridge? I've already said that *some* aircraft will be able to get "shacks", but depending on your CEP, that percentage should be no more than 20-25% (maybe less if your CEP is large enough). So...if you fly a 100 aircraft raid up to as many as 25 aircraft (CEP depending) will shack the target. *However*, another 25% will exceed your CEP by a magnitude of 2 for every shack. Bottom line: You can't see CEP in one or even a dozen BDA photos. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
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#35
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Subject: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
From: (BUFDRVR) Date: 3/1/04 3:10 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I am sure everything you say is true. But I stand by the strike photos on my website which as you can see a lot of "shacks" were scored under difficult coimbat conditions. The photos don't lie How many B-26 dropped on the bridge? I've already said that *some* aircraft will be able to get "shacks", but depending on your CEP, that percentage should be no more than 20-25% (maybe less if your CEP is large enough). So...if you fly a 100 aircraft raid up to as many as 25 aircraft (CEP depending) will shack the target. *However*, another 25% will exceed your CEP by a magnitude of 2 for every shack. Bottom line: You can't see CEP in one or even a dozen BDA photos. BUFDRVR We flew a 56 plane formation. And while what you say is true the bottom line is that we attacked the target and when we left it was destoyed as the photos clearly show., What else is there? And I am sure as you pointed out luck is involved, but you must admit we had an awful lot of luck. Maybe with all that luck there was also a bit of skill involved as well. At least that was the reputation of the 344th. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#36
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"Bob McKellar" wrote in message ... However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier action. He was an active combat experienced soldier. Bull****, Cleland got the silver star for being fragged, or dropped the grenade himself. |
#37
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From: "Tarver Engineering"
"Bob McKellar" wrote in message ... However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier action. He was an active combat experienced soldier. Bull****, Cleland got the silver star for being fragged, or dropped the grenade himself. Tarver, once again you don't know what you are talking about. Cleland got his silver star for actions four days before the grenade fumble. You don't get silver stars for incidents of fratricide. Cite: http://miller.senate.gov/floor/120903clelandnom.html Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired |
#38
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"B2431" wrote in message ... From: "Tarver Engineering" "Bob McKellar" wrote in message ... However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier action. He was an active combat experienced soldier. Bull****, Cleland got the silver star for being fragged, or dropped the grenade himself. Tarver, once again you don't know what you are talking about. Cleland got his silver star for actions four days before the grenade fumble. You don't get silver stars for incidents of fratricide. Politics always plays into awards, Dan. |
#39
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On 29 Feb 2004 22:13:51 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:
To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my formation hit it first. Befo http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg After: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg This mission was very interesting...to say the least: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/b990514i.jpg The rest of my strikes to make "news" were JDAM strikes. The one thing you will notice is that mil dispersion pretty much ensures a few of your weapons are going to miss by a good distance, despite what you say. If you look at the Batajanica images, we threw a few M-117s out "in the weeds". We had anticiapated this because some of the weapons were in pretty bad shape. Unlike you, we realized that sending a loader back to get us some new weapons would have interfered with the "hustle & bustle" of flightline ops, so we pressed on. BUFDRVR, First of all, nice shooting (dropping?lobbing?) either way. Bloody good BDA. A quick question though.... Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of running down old stock? If they are still being produced, why? Do they have a noticably better CEP over a Mk.82/83, or are they significantly cheaper? Thanks, --- Peter Kemp Life is short - drink faster |
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