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#31
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Chris wrote:
"xyzzy" wrote in message ... wrote: Bret Ludwig wrote: Pardon, but the US laws don't impose the onerous requirements that your government is planning on implementing, and even though our FAA can be quite incompetent and pigheaded when they want to be, they're not nearly as anal as the folks the UK pilots have to deal with. Pardon, but the Liberian laws don't impose the onerous requirements that your government has implemented, and even though the Liberian government can be quite incompetent and pigheaded when they want to be, they're not nearly as anal as the folks the US ship owners have to deal with. What are these onerous requirements? Minimum wage, OSHA, union rules, workman's comp, to name just a few? FWIW the US does restrict foreign-registered ships and planes from carrying domestic passengers. A Thai Airlines flight that originates at JFK and stops at LAX to pick up more pax and fuel cannot sell a ticket for the JFK-LAX segment. Not sure this is just a US restriction. On the rec.travel.air newsgroup (where I haven't hung out in a few years so this may changed) they used to refer to this as the "fifth freedom" and I don't think any country allows it. The UK allows it, that I do know. Its possible for example to buy a ticket on say air India from London to New York, on a service that started in Mumbai. But that's not a "domestic" flight. It's not analogous to the NY-LA situation described above. |
#32
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#33
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Peter wrote:
xyzzy wrote Not sure this is just a US restriction. On the rec.travel.air newsgroup (where I haven't hung out in a few years so this may changed) they used to refer to this as the "fifth freedom" and I don't think any country allows it. Isn't this called "cabotage"? It is legal in the EU, as of recently. For anyone, or just carriers from other EU countries? -- "You can support the troops but not the president" --Representative Tom Delay (R-TX), during the Kosovo war. |
#34
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Chris wrote: "xyzzy" wrote in message ... wrote: FWIW the US does restrict foreign-registered ships and planes from carrying domestic passengers. A Thai Airlines flight that originates at JFK and stops at LAX to pick up more pax and fuel cannot sell a ticket for the JFK-LAX segment. Not sure this is just a US restriction. On the rec.travel.air newsgroup (where I haven't hung out in a few years so this may changed) they used to refer to this as the "fifth freedom" and I don't think any country allows it. The UK allows it, that I do know. Its possible for example to buy a ticket on say air India from London to New York, on a service that started in Mumbai. This is not cabotage and is allowed in the US as well. I used to travel from JFK to FRA frequently and you could often get a great deal on Singapore Airlines (one of the world's best) because they would fly JFK-FRA-SKG and while the FRA-SKG segment was always full there were often a few dozen empty seats on the JFK-FRA leg which they would fire sale for 1/3rd of the price on DL or LH. Cabotage would be as for the example I gave above where the foreign flight touches down in two or more US cities such as BKK-LAX-JFK, and sells a ticket for the LAX-JFK segment. The only people this benefits are US airlines, who at this point deserve only a little more sympathy than French truck drivers. I supported the post-9/11 bailouts because that was an extraordinary event and defense/nat'l security issues are the most essential purpose of the whole federal shebang, but that's behind us. The only people benefiting from the current system are sleazebag airline execs who get paid millions to lose billions. Time to let the free market sort things out, IMHO. -cwk. |
#35
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Bob Moore wrote: wrote FWIW the US does restrict foreign-registered ships and planes from carrying domestic passengers. A Thai Airlines flight that originates at JFK and stops at LAX to pick up more pax and fuel cannot sell a ticket for the JFK-LAX segment. Similarly, cruises to Alaska start in Vancouver rather than Seattle because the ships are all registered under flags of convenience. Eighth Freedom - This is also called cabotage and almost no country permits it. Airline cabotage is the carriage of air traffic that originates and terminates within the boundaries of a given country by an air carrier of another country. An example of this would be an airline like Virgin Atlantic Airways operating flights between Chicago and New Orleans. Yes, and a rancid little bit of protectionism it is. If permitted, the primary effect of cabotage in the US would likly be on transcontinental flights, particularly where routes from LAX/SFO/SEA to Europe run over the US northeast. Secondarily would be southeast US-Asia routes which often cross over SEA. Passengers strongly prefer direct flights and modern equipment means you can connect nearly any city pair in the world if you can fill the seats. Of course, allowing cabotage would open new opportunities, since you could take an A-380, start in LAX, then JFK, thence CDG. Allowing the sale of tickets on the LAX-JFK segment makes this a lot easier to pull off. Ultimately the US consumer benefits as LAX-JFK tickets get cheaper, and there are more flights from LAX and JFK to CDG. Practically speaking, this is mostly an issue for the US since there are very few other places where geography and politics intersects properly. There is nothing preventing Delta from operating service from FRA-LHR-JFK, and selling the FRA-LHR segment, except that passengers going from FRA-JFK don't want to stop in London, even if it is a marvelous city. The only other places I can think of where this would really make sense would be Japan (Sapporo-Osaka) or China (Beijing-Shanghai-Guangzhou). Everywhere else you go, you're crossing national barriers and cabotage is no longer the obstacle. Fair is fair, and if we allow this, we ought to lean on the EU and other countries to allow US-owned/operated airlines more access to local markets. Southwest or Scaretran would no doubt love to get in on Japan, China, or Europe, and that would mean more Boeing airframes, GE engines, and Rockwell avionics being made here. -cwk. |
#36
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"Chris" wrote in message ... Not sure this is just a US restriction. On the rec.travel.air newsgroup (where I haven't hung out in a few years so this may changed) they used to refer to this as the "fifth freedom" and I don't think any country allows it. The UK allows it, that I do know. Its possible for example to buy a ticket on say air India from London to New York, on a service that started in Mumbai. Last time I checked, and I could be wrong but, aren't London and New York in to different countries? |
#37
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"Peter" wrote in message ... xyzzy wrote Not sure this is just a US restriction. On the rec.travel.air newsgroup (where I haven't hung out in a few years so this may changed) they used to refer to this as the "fifth freedom" and I don't think any country allows it. Isn't this called "cabotage"? It is legal in the EU, as of recently. Is it completely legal or just within the EU among EU airlines. |
#38
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calling it indeed the fifth freedom.
What are the first four freedoms? (and what are the ones after that?) I've never heard the expression before. Jose -- Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe, except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#39
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Jose wrote:
calling it indeed the fifth freedom. What are the first four freedoms? (and what are the ones after that?) I've never heard the expression before. From: http://www.icao.int/icao/en/chicago_conf/intro.html These Five Freedoms of the Air a Freedom of peaceful transit. Freedom of non-traffic stop (to refuel, repair, or refuge). Freedom to take traffic from the homeland to any country. Freedom to bring traffic from any country to the homeland. Freedom to pick up and discharge traffic at intermediate points. -- "You can support the troops but not the president" --Representative Tom Delay (R-TX), during the Kosovo war. |
#40
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karel wrote:
But ISTR Varig carried people from Paris to Amsterdam on their DC10/MD11 coming from Brazil. Since Paris and Amsterdam are in different countries, cabotage regulations wouldn't apply. George Patterson Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks. |
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