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#31
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"John Carrier" wrote:
Duh? Here's where those qualifications come into play. While the F-14 with its programmed wing-sweep and well-BVR weapons had some advantages over the F-15, when you get to close engagements, the Eagle is considerably more agile than the Tom. Well, not actually. The F-15 has sufficiently superior T/W to the F-14A that through careful energy management and skill, the F-15 will win the engagement ... but in terms of instantaneous turn, pitch rate, etc, it's not quite the equal of the Tom. Put the F110 engines in (F-14B/D) and it's quite different. T/W is almost equal and the F-14 has an advantage throughout much of the envelope. I think the F-15 weapon's system is superior in most environments ... obviously so when AMRAAM is in the mix (personally I think those individuals that denied the F-14 the AMRAAM ought to face charges). The voice of experience is hard to disagree with. My impression had always been that the Eagle was considerably more agile, but the AIM-54 and TWS ability to engage multiple targets simultaneously made the Tom a very dangerous airplane. I'd have to look at the performance charts and find some Ps corners to compare. Regardless of outcome, I'll stand by the original challenge regarding the Tom having distinct superiority over the Eagle. My opportunities to engage the Eagle in the Turkey were somewhat limited, but when gas was not an issue (ie: I had a tanker and the use of A/B) I had little difficulty in gaining a pipper-on guns position. You've said a mouthful there. If you can't have full reheat available in every engagement you're distinctly handicapped. OTOH, while in a Phantom, I found myself quite helpless. I think the only thing I could do where I might have had no disadvantage was to depart the jet. The single seat A-4 (as configured for adversary work) often frustrated the "superior" F-15.\ My first encounter with a Tom while in a Phantom (an exercise in the Med against America around '77) was to be intercepted during a low (very) altitude attack on the boat. The -14 got vectored against me from the left front quadrant--I picked him up visually at 10 o'clock with about 150 degree heading crossing angle. Because I was (as usual) very fast, I told the WSO--"no sweat, he's going to overshoot big time" --followed immediately by an absolutely amazed, "holy ****, did you see that" as the Tom did an incredible bat-turn into firing parameters. And regarding F-15s--I was often quite successful against Eagles when working 2-v-2 in the lowly AT-38, provided the ROE was VID and the Eagles were driven by relatively inexperienced guys. With a high-time wingman and operating in fluid attack, we could run out of film taking high angle gun shots. To return to the topic, I'd cast a vote for the F-8. Best air superiority fighter in the US arsenal for its era (mid-50's competing with century series, etc). Best kill ratio in real world combat (Vietnam). Best ramp strike rate ... oh well. Kill ratio for the F-8 is the highest, but the numbers involved reduce the stat to irrelevance. Not enough kills to be statistically significant. Still, had there been enough of them and had the war been one of air superiority, it sure would have been nice to have a whole herd of F-8s. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (ret) ***"When Thunder Rolled: *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam" *** from Smithsonian Books ISBN: 1588341038 |
#32
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John Carrier wrote: Duh? Here's where those qualifications come into play. While the F-14 with its programmed wing-sweep and well-BVR weapons had some advantages over the F-15, when you get to close engagements, the Eagle is considerably more agile than the Tom. Well, not actually. The F-15 has sufficiently superior T/W to the F-14A that through careful energy management and skill, the F-15 will win the engagement ... but in terms of instantaneous turn, pitch rate, etc, it's not quite the equal of the Tom. Put the F110 engines in (F-14B/D) and it's quite different. T/W is almost equal and the F-14 has an advantage throughout much of the envelope. I think the F-15 weapon's system is superior in most environments ... obviously so when AMRAAM is in the mix (personally I think those individuals that denied the F-14 the AMRAAM ought to face charges). I think the Navy is more concerned about getting rid of the F-14, than extending their service life. The F-14 was bought as a fleet defense fighter and that mission is not a major concern of the Navy. The carrier battle group has become the gun boat of the Twenty First Century and the F-18 and F-35 are seen as better multimission fighters. David |
#33
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:32:22 +0100, John Halliwell wrote:
In article , phil hunt writes Me 262. First operational jet fighter. The Meteor went operational 8 days before the Me 262, the Me 262 may have been the first jet fighter to fly, Ther He 280 flew before the Me 262. but it wasn't the first operational. I stand corrected. -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet? |
#35
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"ArVa" wrote:
"Ed Rasimus" a écrit dans le message de Well, for most of us, it's the first fighter, not the last that holds the special place. Here's what no less a personage than Ernest Hemingway had to say about love of fighters: "You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others. A man has only one virginity to lose in fighters, and if it is a lovely plane he loses it to, there his heart will ever be." - Ernest Hemingway, August 1944. I first thought that the plane you are about to fly for the *last* time was the most important, as a career's achievement and the last opportunity to be part of a rather special community. But reading your answer and Ernest Hemingway's statement I guess both of you are right. I didn't pay attention enough to the emotional factor. Well, you didn't ask, but the reason I had the Hemingway quote handy, is that I'm using it in my current project which is the story of my F-4 combat tour during Linebacker I/II. Here's the follow up (in my words) to the quote: "Poppa was right on. I'd lost my cherry to the Thunderchief long before I got my Phantom assignment. I'd wanted to fly the Thud from the first day I'd seen one and I'd been fortunate to have been able to meet the girl of my dreams, woo her and take her to bed in the vicious days of Rolling Thunder. I'd lost my heart, my soul, my virginity to an airplane with one seat, one engine and a gun. I'd been alone in bad guy land in what was absolutely the best airplane in the world and I'd been brought home safely more than one hundred times. How could one not love her? Now I was headed to F-4 school. I'd spent the last five years sparring with Phantom drivers, sometimes seriously, sometimes jokingly about the deficiencies of their airplane and the superiority of mine. There were some deep-rooted issues regarding the views of the airplanes. On the one hand, there was the simple issue of assignment out of pilot training. I'd been fortunate enough to have the skills, the desire and, most importantly, the healthy dose of luck required to gain an assignment to a single seat fighter. The numbers told the story. There were eight undergraduate pilot training bases pumping out USAF pilots in a class every six weeks all year around. That meant about 325 new second lieutenants joining the force every month and a half of which nine would get to fly the F-105. The Phantom community was restricted at that time to experienced pilots in the front seat and new graduate pilots in the rear cockpit. In my graduating class there had been one hundred and forty guys sent to back-seat pilot duties in the F-4. It wasn't difficult to feel a bit superior. Nine guys got laid by a queen of the prom and 140 got sloppy seconds with a fat, smoky, double-breasted ex-Navy airplane that didn't even have a gun." Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (ret) ***"When Thunder Rolled: *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam" *** from Smithsonian Books ISBN: 1588341038 |
#36
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In article , "Charles Talleyrand"
wrote: My question is this: Which fighter had the clearest advantage over it's the other fighters of it's time frame? Tested but not fielded, I'll vote for the YF-12. Just the test results changed the whole Soviet approach to attacking CONUS. Not to mention the first look-down shoot-down doppler radar. Shooting down a target flying at (IIRC) 1500 feet while ownship cruise at 70,000. Part of this was the missile of course, but no fighter a/c lives in isolation without it's weapons. Range, speed, altitude and weapons were clearly superior to anything else flying at the time. -- Harry Andreas Engineering raconteur |
#37
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Harry Andreas wrote:
In article , "Charles Talleyrand" wrote: My question is this: Which fighter had the clearest advantage over it's the other fighters of it's time frame? Tested but not fielded, I'll vote for the YF-12. How about the F-101!? Fielded and tested... Asbjorn |
#38
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Asbjörn wrote:
How about the F-101!? Fielded and tested... Asbjorn Name one thing that the F-101 could do signifiicantly better than other aircraft of the period--except for suddenly departing from controlled flight at the most inopportune moments. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (ret) ***"When Thunder Rolled: *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam" *** from Smithsonian Books ISBN: 1588341038 |
#39
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"David Lentz" wrote in message
I think the Navy is more concerned about getting rid of the F-14, than extending their service life. The F-14 was bought as a fleet defense fighter and that mission is not a major concern of the Navy. And yet, even as it fades out of service, the F-14 is often touted as the air wing's premiere strike asset. The carrier battle group has become the gun boat of the Twenty First Century and the F-18 and F-35 are seen as better multimission fighters. Which is a real pity. The Navy could probably have achieved almost everything it got in the Super Hornet with a modernized F-14 (Tomcat-21, for example) for far less effort. -- Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed) |
#40
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Ed Rasimus wrote:
Asbjörn wrote: How about the F-101!? Fielded and tested... Asbjorn Name one thing that the F-101 could do signifiicantly better than other aircraft of the period--except for suddenly departing from controlled flight at the most inopportune moments. Watching them as a kid around ADC bases, they *seemed* to be able to outclimb the dueces and even the sixes (never saw an F-104 fly until after the Voodoo's were sent off to Canada). FWIW, they were definitely impressive (huge!) looking whether on the ground or in the air and the roll rate was amazingly fast for its size (wings level to 90-deg. angle-of-bank in the blink of an eye). And a much sleeker, nicer looking twin-engined jet compared to its younger, more capable F-4 brethren. Of course, no matter how fast it could roll, the -101 turn radius was Boeing 727-like as the -101 just seemed to continue flying straight regardless of angle-of-bank 'till it reached the next county. BTW, the -105 was equally as impressive due to its huge size, and their long-legged gear hanging down and high angle-of-attack landing approaches. Seemed the -101 and -105 flew the 360-deg. overhead approaches at .9+ mach! My vote for "best fighter for its time": WW1-- Fokker D VII, WW2 -- P-51D Korea -- F-86A Vietnam -- F-4E Post 'Nam-to-Present -- F-15E -Mike Marron |
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