Aviation crash videos on-line

I hope you and I have no hard feelings after this issue has been put
down and can continue our Usenet association in a friendly manner.

That, sir, is a given.

You'll have to work harder than this to **** me off!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
newsoF_c.583$vy.480@attbi_s52...
I hope you and I have no hard feelings after this issue has been put
down and can continue our Usenet association in a friendly manner.

That, sir, is a given.

You'll have to work harder than this to **** me off!

;-)

Fair enough.

Take care,
DH

"wse" wrote in message ...
I love WTC crash pictures!


Of course you do dear, all top posting trolls-in-training do.

Now give mommy her computer back and run along. The cat needs to be set
afire.

Richard

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Dear Mr. Henriques,

I am beginning to get fed up with your moralistic lections. I have put
the
videos on-line to share them with other people, and hoping to receive
some
new videos from other collectors. The reason that I used the aviation
safety
newsgroup to announce the video webpage was because I know that
crashes have
everything to do with aviation safety and people in this group may be
extra
interested to look at them for many different reasons.

Whatever my intentions are to share the videos, it is not something
that
requires your approval. The fact is that aviation crashes are fully
ON-TOPIC
on this newsgroup. I don't have to put up with the opinion of some
hypoctit
pilot who is involved in demonstration flights and air races, intended
to
push flying to the limit. If it wasn't for guys like you, about 50% of
all
crash videos would have never been shot because the crashes simply
didn't
occur.

Flying is relatively safe, but pushing flight to the limit for the fun
of it
just isn't. Don't complain if something goes wrong when guys like you
are
willingly taking more risk than necessary during air races and
demonstration
flights. And stop pointing fingers at people who are interested to see
thrilling aviation just because it simply exites them. Pilots like you
provided it to them in the first place!

And regarding the photographer that shot the photos of your friend's
widow,
these guys are called journalists. It is people like them that fill
the
newspapers with eye catching photos that make the readers feel the
emotion
involved in incidents and accidents. It gives face to the cold text of
the
news. For example: Just think of what 9/11 would have looked like to
the
world without photos or video. The world just wouldn't be half as
upset as
it is now.

I will continue to try and shoot beautiful and artistic aviation
photographs
like can be seen at my photogalleries, and I will also continue to try
and
keep the aviation videos on-line. Having learned from the first
publication,
I think I will create a webpage at which I will publish one new video
every
week. With about 100 videos available already, I have enough material
to
publish for two years straight. Just keep checking
http://www.dappa.nl/crash.htm for the videos, or to see my
photogalleries.

To all other readers: If you have any aviation crash videos for me,
please
send them to .

Fly safe,
Iwan Bogels




"Dudley Henriques" schreef in bericht
ink.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...
What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft
crashes
for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of
viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than
I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is
entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly
seen
by the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of
hundreds of
county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's
Worst
Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them
depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest
people like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses
is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on
the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".
You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY
people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you
are
backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos
"thrilling".
Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more
correctly,
the lack of ethics.
I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would
argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the
net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of
the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.
Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool,
and
presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS,
crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the
aviation
community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage
presented in this manner.
But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there
presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash
video
that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public
service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull
****!
These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their
community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that.
What's
important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and
yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic
the
event, the more kudos for the photographer.
Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I
stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in
71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag.
I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking
and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!
Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can
learn
from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow
ourselves
to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy
our
"hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of
ethical
behavior.
BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere
,
remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several
years
ago to a stroke. We miss her very much.
Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a
camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a
picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal
moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!
And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the
years
concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

This post is so filled with your generalities about race and airshow
pilots that I don't believe it even requires an answer from me one way
or the other. You have made a complete case that shows anyone with half
a brain exactly what I was talking about when I first confronted you.
As for the "journalist" that shot the photo of my friend's widow; he was
no journalist; he was a spectator with a camera. He dragged his two
small children over with him to see the wreck. I took the camera from
him personally and smashed it on the ground. He was at that point
confronted by two more of our friends and barely escaped with his bones
intact.
So much for your "journalism"!
As I said, feel free to spew your stuff anywhere you like, and you're
right; you don't need my approval to do it. But you'll find me there
when you do just the same.
Welcome to Usenet! You don't dictate policy here. You'll get your share
of positive reaction and have to take the negative along with it, or
you'll get VERY frustrated around here my friend. Unfortunately for you,
I go with your territory, so get used to me. Anytime I see you pushing
crash video without a stated reason for doing so, I'll comment anyway I
please.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

A twently line reponse.
An 8 line SIG file
Then you quote back three posters including
yourself including your own SIG file for a grand
total of over 230 lines of quoted text.

DUDLEY ------- WHY WON'T YOU TRIM YOUR POSTS...??????

"For Crying Out Loud" wrote in message
...
A twently line reponse.
An 8 line SIG file
Then you quote back three posters including
yourself including your own SIG file for a grand
total of over 230 lines of quoted text.

DUDLEY ------- WHY WON'T YOU TRIM YOUR POSTS...??????

Because I want people to actually READ what this guy is selling, that's
why!
If it bothers you, pass it up!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"For Crying Out Loud" wrote in message
...
A twently line reponse.
An 8 line SIG file
Then you quote back three posters including
yourself including your own SIG file for a grand
total of over 230 lines of quoted text.

DUDLEY ------- WHY WON'T YOU TRIM YOUR POSTS...??????

Because I want people to actually READ what this guy is selling, that's
why!
If it bothers you, pass it up!

Fair enough. So why don't you just apply the same advice to the video site
if it bothers you?

John

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"For Crying Out Loud" wrote in message
...
A twently line reponse.
An 8 line SIG file
Then you quote back three posters including
yourself including your own SIG file for a grand
total of over 230 lines of quoted text.

DUDLEY ------- WHY WON'T YOU TRIM YOUR POSTS...??????

Because I want people to actually READ what this guy is selling,
that's
why!
If it bothers you, pass it up!

Fair enough. So why don't you just apply the same advice to the video
site
if it bothers you?

John

Objecting to the photographer who set up this site is not an attempt to
sway people from visiting the site. That is an individual decision. My
objection was simply stated to express my personal feelings about people
who take these photos for entertainment. Nothing more. If the thread
provokes people into giving some thought to the entire issue of crash
photos for entertainment, I have been successful in what I wished to
say...that's it....nothing more exciting than that.
It's not a cause with me.....just a sentiment expressed then followed up
..
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

"Richard Smith" wrote

Of course you do dear, all top posting trolls-in-training do.

Now give mommy her computer back and run along. The cat needs to be set
afire.

Top-posting, bottom-posting. Who gives a damn?

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q

"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...
In article et,
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:


Objecting to the photographer who set up this site is not an attempt
to
sway people from visiting the site. That is an individual decision.
My
objection was simply stated to express my personal feelings about
people
who take these photos for entertainment...


Since you object to people shoot photos/film of such things for
commercial (entertainment) entertainment purposes can we expect to see
you rail on Discovery Channel et al? Or do you support the coverage
when
its all positive...but reject it when it portrays the periodic
mishaps?



--Mike

This, and your other post to me asking continuisly for an explanation of
my objections to the specific context of crash videos being discussed in
this thread are a perfect example of why I don't answer posts like
yours.
The answer has been plainly stated in other posts and is clear to anyone
with reasonable intelligence. Your constant demand that I repeat these
reasons because you "can't find the answer" isn't enough incentive for
me to repost an entire thought process for your personal conveinence.
That being said, I've pasted in below the EXACT answer to your constant
requests for that answer. If you can't get what I'm saying from this,
I'm sorry, I can't help you any further.

From a prior post by me and quite clear on the "why's";
The "ethics" that I was attacking and will always continue to attack are
not as clearly cut as you would like to have them. The physical act of
taking a picture at an air show disaster is only the tip of a large
iceberg. The REASON for taking that picture, and what the photographer
does with the picture after it's been taken is the area of my concern,
NOT the fact that the picture was taken per se, which seems to be the
crux of everything you have been attempting to "explain" to me.
There is nothing improper about taking photographs or filming a video
during an air race or air show disaster IF the reason for taking these
pictures isn't prurient. A video shot as a record of the event or to be
used as news of the event is one thing. That's ethical. A video of a
crash used in a safety program designed to help prevent the same
accident from happening again is more than ethical. It's advisable!
On the other hand, there are those who take these photographs and film
these videos for no other reason than their own prurient interest; a
record for them personally to "enjoy" watching and to pass on to others
in the public forum as their " the thrill of the day". Photographers who
use these photographs in their "hobby" and present them to the public
seeking only acclaim for their skill as photographers are completely
unethical to us in the airshow community. These people, displaying an
aspect of human nature that will unfortunately always be with us, are in
my opinion unethical. On the airshow circuit we think of them as human
leeches standing there with their cameras waiting for one of us to die
so they can catch the moment on film to later be released by them for
their own purpose unrelated to anything but their own amusement or
profit.
The only ethics involved with this issue are the ethics involved for the
reasons the camera shutter clicks. There are good reasons and there are
bad reasons. The photographers I have so strongly objected to are the
one's with the "bad" reasons; the thrill seekers; the "hobbyists".
Any race or airshow pilot will tell you that the existence of crash
video is a given, and we understand that there will be pictures if
something goes wrong for us. In a way, we welcome it, because it might
help save another pilot's life, but none of us accept the leech
photographers, the paparazzi type, who come to exploit us when something
goes wrong.
These "hobby" video people fit into the unethical category for us, and
yes, we detest them!
As for people outside the airshow community discussing an issue like
this one with us; everyone of course has the right to an opinion, but
it's better that you ASK, rather than TELL when you get into something
as close to the show community as this issue. That's just a friendly
suggestion. Pilots from the community don't mind opposing viewpoint. We
do however, like a pilot to have some actual experience with what we do
before expressing that opinion too loudly :-)

If this doesn't answer what you keep "demanding" than you will just have
to get by on whatever floats your boat.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet