Combat Ready Bush?

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
Robey Price wrote:

Check here for a document titled "Statement of Intent"

Yep, so what? I fail to see where he said (and you claimed he said) that
military flying was going to be a "life long commitment". He specifically
"intended" to finish his ADSC (which he did) and make *flying* a life long
comittment. So your beef with Lt. Bush was that he failed to get a
civilian
rating or pursue the airlines? He certainly didn't do anything in that
letter
that some how comitted him to do anything than serve his ADSC.

Actually, he did get a civilian ticket. From Dan's (great) website: "As is
usual with military pilots, Bush also received a "commercial" certificate on
Dec 8, 1969. He was rated for single- and multi-engine airplanes, and for
flying on instruments without visual reference to the ground."

http://www.vivabush.org/bushf102.htm


Page 7 of 25 cupcake...made it up did I?

Yes. You claimed he was obligated to life long membership in the Air
National
Guard because of this document, that has been shown to be false.

Gee, I'd be careful there Bufdrvr...when a *guy* starts calling another guy
"cupcake", it makes you wonder as to how much contact his loafers have with
the ground. Don't be droppin' no soap around him...

Brooks



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Robey Price wrote:

Yep, so what?

So what? Who sarcastically asked,"What AF Form was this AF FORM LLC? I
can't figure out why guys make stuff up in newsgroups like this...?"

No, the answer still is; so what? That piece of paper did not obligate Bush to
do *anything*.

Answer...it wasn't made up.

No, the document wasn't made up, but the fact that you are trying to create
some kind of commitment from it sure is.

"gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment.

No, he said he was making flying a life long commitment. All he said about the
TANG was that he would serve his entire ADSC/MSO.

There is no evidence that he even attempted to fulfill that "promise."
He never said he lost interest, but his action sure did."

Its already been pointed out to you and several others that the mission of the
111th was changing and would not be condusive to traditional guardsmen. It
appears that even if Bush had wanted to fly more than anyone on the planet he
would not have been able to with the 111th.

**** can't you read BD?

Yes.

He signed the letter that ends "by serving as a memeber of the
Air National Guard as long as possible."

Kind of hard to do if your unit first becomes an RTU, then transitions. I'm
willing to bet there were at least 2 dozen other guys in that unit that wound
up just like Lt. Bush.

Bottom Line: you challenged the veracity of my claim he signed some
bull**** letter...he did.

The letter he signed didn't commit him to anything, you claimed it did.

You BD were left ****ing flat footed, now
arguing the semantics of things I didn't claim.

No, actually you did claim he commited himself for life.

You started off
arguing there was no letter...when confronted with the facts you now
argue what he meant by signing the letter.

I argued that there was no service obligation form where you could commit for
life. I was right.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police,
(BUFDRVR) confessed the following:


No, the document wasn't made up, but the fact that you are trying to create
some kind of commitment from it sure is.

No..."gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long
commitment."

His stated intention is not the same thing as saying, he signed a
friggin' contract. I've never claimed that. I claim he stated his
intention to pursue flying as something more than 22 months as a full
up MR pilot.

Its already been pointed out to you and several others that the mission of the
111th was changing and would not be condusive to traditional guardsmen. It
appears that even if Bush had wanted to fly more than anyone on the planet he
would not have been able to with the 111th.

Not true...ANG RTUs have always had a mix of full-time and traditional
guard guys. gwb could have been selected to make the move...or not,
depending on the discretion of the commander.

Kind of hard to do if your unit first becomes an RTU, then transitions.

Not at all, the unit still had T-33s for targets, he could have raised
and lowered the gear from the right seat of the C-54. He had options
if he wanted to fulfill that obligation...the only thing you seem to
think he's signed on for in the "Statement of Intent."

Bottom Line: you challenged the veracity of my claim he signed some
bull**** letter...he did.

The letter he signed didn't commit him to anything, you claimed it did.

No, I claimed he signed a statement of intent...in this statement it
said "he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long commitment."
and clarified that to Ed thusly, "I'm talking about a "letter" of
intent where gwb professed that he wanted to fly and that he had a
desire to make flying a "life long" pursuit, and the best way to
accomplish that was as a pilot in the TX ANG.

Notice I never claim he signed some contract obligating him to
actually do something.

He signed a statement of intent. That intent was to pursue flying...as
a member of the Texas ANG as long as possible. I'm NOT suggesting he
wanted to be an airline puke, or a crop duster. I'm saying he intended
to be a TXANG pilot as long as possible...otherwise why even include
that phrase?

You BD were left ****ing flat footed, now
arguing the semantics of things I didn't claim.

No, actually you did claim he commited himself for life.

No...you've inferred something I did not state.

I argued that there was no service obligation form where you could commit for
life. I was right.

No your first salvo was "What AF Form was this AF FORM LLC? I can't
figure out why guys make stuff up in newsgroups like this, as if your
not going to be called on your BS."

I argue that the second sentence ..."the goal of making flying a
lifetime pursuit...by serving as a memeber of the Air National Guard
as long as possible." Is significantly longer than..."fulfill my
obligation to the utmost ability."

That is all!

y are you persisting in this?

snip


What fast and loose? The guy got the benefit of dad's congressional
gig to get into a fighter cockpit

Prove it

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

From: Robey Price
Date: 9/13/2004 11:45 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police,
(BUFDRVR) confessed the following:


No, the document wasn't made up, but the fact that you are trying to create
some kind of commitment from it sure is.

No..."gwb signed a statement of intent in 1968,
saying he planned to make flying in the TX ANG a life long
commitment."


For those of us who remember job loyalty and pride there's a thing called
"selling one's self" when applying for employment. You have to tell the
employer you will do everything for him. The letter you present is just that.

I used to own a business. If you came in applying for a job and just told me
what you wanted you wouldn't get it. If you told me what you would do for me
you would have a better chance.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 02:00:01 GMT, Robey Price
wrote:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Leslie
Swartz" confessed the following:

Not during a mandated drawdown they won't.

Nobody is claiming that...well except you now.

You have information on the manning document of the 111th FIS during
its conversion from Dueces to Voodoos? I have not seen what you're
addressing. Where can we find these documents? Who said their staffing
was "a mandated drawdown?" We'll agree that the Rated Sup was
commencing for the active duty guys, and controlled OERs were the
rage, but the 111th FIS was in the midst of converting to an RTU sqdn.
I suspect their manning document showed an increase in manpower.

You have stated that you entered UPT too late to participate in
Vietnam. That means that the period you are discussing for GWB's
service was prior to your tenure. I've provided input first on the
state of pilot production in '68 when he entered service and later in
'70-'72 when I was OPR for Air Training Command
pilot/nav/helicopter/survival assignments.

The Rated Supplement was cranked up during '69 as we started the
drawdown from SEA. Remember that Nixon was elected in '68 and took
office in Jan '69. He started the Vietnamization process and we
gradually saw numbers decline with the biggest cuts coming at the end
of '70 for the FY '71 Program Flying Training. As I've previously
stated, USAF chose to shut down from the source by cutting
acquisitions while USN simply chopped across the force. Bottom line is
that we had excess pilots everywhere in the active force and a lot of
guys (following your logic) didn't want to go rated supplement if
there was an opportunity to get out and maybe go with the Guard or
AFRES. So, we had suprlus pilots.

And, just to be historically accurate, controlled OERs didn't come
about until 1976-77. So, you're about five years off in throwing that
mis-fact into the discussion.

Robey, why are you persisting in this?

Because I am skeptical of gwb [period]. I'm sincerely surprised that
the guy gets a "free pass" from aviators of his generation.

He gets a free pass from this aviator because I know what it takes to
go through UPT, survival, operational training and mission qual (as do
you.) I know that it takes more than six months basic in the Army
Guard followed by a couple of years of monthly meetings. You know it
as well.

He also gets a pass because a very close friend of mine who also did
the 100 North in a F-105 as a 1/Lt was the president's IP in Tweets at
Moody and has told me quite clearly about the president's flying and
his personality. He speaks with great respect about the man.

Quoi? Where was this RIF in the TX ANG you're suggesting (unfunded
positions)? There is no paperwork indicating the 111th FIS was losing
manpower (pilot slots)...they were converting. They spent the money to
train gwb (UPT and RTU) and the return on their investment was 22
months as an MR (or "Qualified" for the pedant) F-102 pilot. Four
years out of his 6 year OMS.

And, as stated above, four years after his acqusition conditions had
changed considerably. Further in a Guard slot a requal couldn't be
accomplished in monthly training periods but would require full time
activation for the training and then acceptance by the individual of
an additional service commitment.


Regarding ANG hiring for positions...I got hired for a specific billet
in Sep 1990 only to have the NGB (National Guard Bureau) cut that
position a week before the UTA weekend. The unit turned around and
hired me for another specific position...without that I would not have
been picked up by the ANG. In that same unit, a 1Lt was FEB'd, lost
his flying slot and put into a support position rather than being cut
loose (it was a ****ing match of sorts, the unit got their service
obligation out of the Lt).

And, you should note that 18 years later your anecdotal experience is
pretty irrelevant. I can also cite a very competent Viper driver I
knew on active duty who got an $80k bonus for accepting a six year
additional service commitment in 1988, then in 1989 got offered a
$250k buyout to leave the service during a reduction in force. One
year they paid him to stay, the next year they paid him to leave.
Still irrelevant to the issue.


Now if you're trying to say the 111th FIS was NOT interested in
keeping gwb...hey I might buy that. I actually like that. They got
"influenced" to take gwb; his pilot AFOQT was the minimum;

Maybe you saw the DCS/Ops for the TANG during that period appear on
Fox News yesterday stating that while there was a considerable wait
list for enlisted Guard slots, there was a shortage of QUALIFIED pilot
candidates during the period that Bush was accepted.

UPT
performance was average;

Last I saw he finished 24 out of 58 in his class. That's pretty good
(at least in the estimation of this former UPT IP.)

he wasn't anything special; folks noticed his
"give a ****" attitude;

The attitude sounds like a fighter pilot to me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police,
(B2431) confessed the following:


For those of us who remember job loyalty and pride there's a thing called
"selling one's self" when applying for employment. You have to tell the
employer you will do everything for him. The letter you present is just that.

Fair enough...you're telling me you don't actually have to mean what
you say. You only have to say what the employer wants to hear.

I used to own a business. If you came in applying for a job and just told me
what you wanted you wouldn't get it. If you told me what you would do for me
you would have a better chance.

Interesting...honesty is not the virtue you admire...enthusiasm is
what polishes your apple.

Robey

From: Robey Price
Date: 9/14/2004 11:02 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police,
(B2431) confessed the following:


For those of us who remember job loyalty and pride there's a thing called
"selling one's self" when applying for employment. You have to tell the
employer you will do everything for him. The letter you present is just
that.

Fair enough...you're telling me you don't actually have to mean what
you say. You only have to say what the employer wants to hear.

If all you want is a job, yes. Then again who is to say Bush didn't mean what
he wrote then changed his mind 3 years later?


I used to own a business. If you came in applying for a job and just told me
what you wanted you wouldn't get it. If you told me what you would do for me
you would have a better chance.

Interesting...honesty is not the virtue you admire...enthusiasm is
what polishes your apple.

I didn't say that at all. I expect honesty. Please note I said you would have a
better chance. If I didn't believe you were being honest you would not be
hired.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus
confessed the following:

You have stated that you entered UPT too late to participate in
Vietnam. That means that the period you are discussing for GWB's
service was prior to your tenure.

True.

I've provided input first on the state of pilot production in '68
when he entered service and later in '70-'72 when I was OPR
for Air Training Command pilot/nav/helicopter/survival assignments.

Nice background, but not germane to gwb's actions. ANG guys already
had their assignments when they showed up at UPT, I don't see how you
would have had anything to do with ANG follow-on assignments.

Remember that Nixon was elected in '68 and took
office in Jan '69.

Gee I had forgotten that Ed...8-)

Bottom line is that we had excess pilots everywhere... we had suprlus pilots.

Never claimed there weren't. Conditions change, as do options
available. ANG units have latitude/options in accepting pilots that
active duty units don't. They've always had different options.

And, just to be historically accurate, controlled OERs didn't come
about until 1976-77. So, you're about five years off in throwing that
mis-fact into the discussion.

Five years? OK if you say so. In Sep 1974 a 1Lt T-38 IP at Moody was
passed over for Capt, because of his "controlled" 2 OER...his wife was
a senior in my AFROTC Det. On an escorted tour in Oct 1974 at Moody by
another T-38 IP, he explained why he was going into Hospital
Administration...two things...Rated Sup and f*cking controlled OERs
(his words).

Whether I'm off by 5 years as you claim, or if you might be mistaken;
the inclusion of controlled OERs was not to swing the discussion,
merely to indicate my awareness of manning and promotion issues. It
wasn't germane to the issue of gwb's actions or inactions.

I'll happily stipulate that controlled OERs are NOT nor have they ever
been an issue WRT gwb's service in the TX ANG. OK?

But with all your insight into the machinations of AFMPC, you had no
working knowledge of how the state of Texas handled their manpower
issues. Correct?

Or are you suggesting you made phone calls to ANG units to help
friends get a flying slot? Not pointing fingers, just curious .

He gets a free pass from this aviator...

And that is truly distrubing. No ****.

And, as stated above, four years after his acqusition conditions had
changed considerably.

Ture...for active duty slugs...not so true for guys already in place
with an ANG flying slot.

Further in a Guard slot a requal couldn't be accomplished in
monthly training periods but would require full time activation
for the training...

Not true Ed, gwb had already flown the T-33, he finished a T-33
syllabus in Feb 70. He could have stayed and flown as a target
pilot...or raised and lowered the gear on the squadron/wing C-54.
Guess the TX ANG C-54 or T-33s couldn't find their way to Maxwell or
Dannelly Field...no approach plates.

These options were apparently not considered. Or maybe they were and
gwb wasn't really wanted by the unit. Did you even consider either of
these options?

Hmmm, two years to go on this guy, he can fly the T-33, we have
training to support with the T-33...no brainer...stick gwb in the
cockpit of the T-33. That wasn't so hard.

Maybe you saw the DCS/Ops ... there was a shortage of QUALIFIED pilot
candidates during the period that Bush was accepted.

And I've heard Roy Barnes say he went to bat for gwb...but you're
right if the minimums weren't good enough, lower them, and use
political connections.

Or this http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLIT...ush.professor/

Last I saw he finished 24 out of 58 in his class. That's pretty good
(at least in the estimation of this former UPT IP.)

Ed, you trying to use some of that new fangled community college math
I been hearin' 'bout? 41% from the top is pretty good? Fair to say
you're not teaching statisics or probability. 8-)

Suffice to say, it saddens me that guys like you...men that I truly
respect for your service are not the least bit critical. A former Sqdn
CO that was a T-38 IP at Moody when gwb was there also shares my
opinion (and this from a guy that will vote for gwb).

The real issue isn't gwb's ANG history, it's the course our nation is
taking.

I think you and I have flogged this ad nauseum. With all due respect I
yield the parting shot to you. I've lost my enthusiasm for this
discussion...terminal illness in my immediate family.

Take Care

Robey

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police,
(B2431) confessed the following:

If all you want is a job, yes.

OK

Then again who is to say Bush didn't mean what he wrote then changed
his mind 3 years later?

Can I get an amen brothas and sistas? You sir, have just paraphrased
what I have been arguing for so long. gwb lost interest...he changed
his mind...he didn't want to be a fighter pilot anymore. He didn't
come out and say it...but his actions spoke for him.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Robey