Youth in soaring, and anything

On Dec 19, 5:50*am, GM wrote:
I realize that not everybody will push his water-
laden $180k glider into the winch queue but perhaps there are many
pilots perfectly happy to do a couple of launches and maybe catch a
thermal for a local flight.

At my club we do both winch launches and aerotows.

Winch launches predominate, with aerotows being
largely "relegated" to (a minority of) trial flights, and
during competitions when we need to get 50 gliders
up within an hour.

The number of "relights" we need is surprisingly small.
By and large, if you are going to be able to soar at all,
then you can do it from a winch launch.

There are some really encouraging developments ongoing in the US to
make winches more affordable for clubs. Besides lowering the costs per
flight, a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
younger crowd craves. I realize that not everybody will push his water-
laden $180k glider into the winch queue but perhaps there are many
pilots perfectly happy to do a couple of launches and maybe catch a
thermal for a local flight. This is the segment not served by the club
that charges $50+ per launch but is worth retaining!
I see the winch as an integral part of the solution.
My 2 cents worth ....
Uli Neumann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Our kids pay $15 to 2000 ft and the 1-26 is free. Their other flying,
such as training, is about 1/2 of regular member. essentially they pay
variable costs for their flying and the regular membership, plus some
income from introductory flights, covers absorption of fixed costs.
Alas, our airport is not suitable for winching.
UH

That's a very reasonable rate. Different clubs use different
strategies. One large chapter waives the $10 hookup charge for
members of active teams, reducing the cost for their active, assigned
participation. It also obviates the need for herding cats by trying
to have all members working the essential tasks.

Among SSA chapters, about 18-19 have the charitable 501c(3) tax
determination. That creates many opportunities. Those chapters exist
for the public benefit. Recent comments from one such (admittedly
large) chapter indicates that they are $60,000/year better off for
that tax status. Another forty or so chapters have a 501c(7)
determination. The remainder may or may not be state non-profits.
About six clubs may have determinations but operate as SSA business
members for no clear reason. Generally, those not for public benefit,
but are mutual benefit organizations. On the up side, I've discussed
the 501c(3) status with three groups in the past ten days, two
chapters and one group considering organizing plus several others
during the year.

That's actually the way the US may subsidize, through charitable
donations. In some of the 501c(3) chapters, joining charges and dues
may be partially or fully tax deductible. There may be provisions for
relief of real and personal property taxes, and sales taxes, or pay
reduced rates. There may be grant opportunities. It may be possible
to draw on federal and state surplus property. All of this may serve
to reduce the cost of participation or expansion. It takes time and
effort and you have to wrap your mind around the concepts and what it
means to be a charitable, non-profit organization.

Several chapters have youth/student rates that may be half the full
members rates, at least for joining fees and dues. Fewer lower the
cost of the operational charges, tows, glider fees, etc. Some have
local scholarships, based on particular performance or eligibility
standards. There are many good programs around, but we, the US
soaring community, could do better.

Frank Whiteley

Dave White wrote:
I'm the youth program coordinator at Texas Soaring Association, and I
can tell you that one of my ongoing concerns is precisely what is
addressed in the beginning of this thread. Our program gives youth
program members credit for $10 per hour worked on club tasks. It's a
great deal, but when the young person finishes their private license,
they are done in the youth program. They then have the option to
convert to full membership for half the normal initiation fee. This
is a huge concession on the part of the club, but it still leaves us
saying goodbye to some fine young people who would be great for the
future of the sport. I'm trying to find a way to bring some of these
kids back into the program as mentors/supervisors/role models and
continue their membership in the youth program. But even that doesn't
resolve the long term issue that pops up in their 20s--career, school,
family vs. soaring.


Maybe these pilots will return in 25 years after their children have
left home. That may be the best reason for trying to get youth involved
now.




BTW, in my time with the club, I only recall one teenage towpilot, and
he's not with the club any more. Gone off to school, I believe.

On Dec 19, 9:31 am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Dec 19, 7:51 am, "
wrote:

Money is the easy complaint. I'd guess time is the real answer,
followed by spousal permission. And we have become a risk averse
planet, current culture punishes non-risk averse individuals.
Especially with many 'leaders' trying to scare the crap out of
everyone. Those are our 'profits of doom'.

In the '60's the question was 'are you experienced?' Now, it seems to
be 'are you dangerous?'. Funny how obtuse PC has become.

On Dec 19, 8:50*am, Dave White wrote:
I'm the youth program coordinator at Texas Soaring Association, and I
can tell you that one of my ongoing concerns is precisely what is
addressed in the beginning of this thread. *Our program gives youth
program members credit for $10 per hour worked on club tasks. *It's a
great deal, but when the young person finishes their private license,
they are done in the youth program. *They then have the option to
convert to full membership for half the normal initiation fee. *This
is a huge concession on the part of the club, but it still leaves us
saying goodbye to some fine young people who would be great for the
future of the sport. *I'm trying to find a way to bring some of these
kids back into the program as mentors/supervisors/role models and
continue their membership in the youth program. *But even that doesn't
resolve the long term issue that pops up in their 20s--career, school,
family vs. soaring.

BTW, in my time with the club, I only recall one teenage towpilot, and
he's not with the club any more. *Gone off to school, I believe.

Hmmm, I was told recently there was a second teenage tow pilot.

There was also another in Illinois I believe.

In any case, they come from the 14yo solo glider driver.

Many of those who've drifted away will be back.

Frank

For those of you who are interested in winch launching, Don Ingraham from
Cross Country Soaring is bringing his winch to Immokalee FL (KIMM) from mid
January thru the end of February to do winch training. He's offering a
package deal: $600 gets you a winch launch endorsement, including up to 20
launches, use of his Grob, and flight instruction. Included in the package
is a free BFR.

Bring your whole family down for a week or two, and let them enjoy the
beaches in Naples or Ft. Myers while you join us in Immokalee for some
serious fun.

Mike Schumann

P.S. Aerotows will also be available thru High Soaring. The Everglades
Soaring Club also has low cost membership options for pilots who want to
join us for some winter soaring!

"GM" wrote in message
...
On Dec 17, 5:08 pm, Ryan Spicer wrote:
The plural of anecdote is not "data," nor is it "trend," but here's my
story: I earned my private glider ticket at age 24, in 2008. I'd
wanted to start since I was in my early teens -- my father flew SEL
back in the 70s and I grew up around airports, airplanes, and pilots.
The first time I had the money to pursue training, though, was 2008.
I joined the nearest soaring club shortly after earning my ticket, and
they do a lot to make flying fun and affordable, but pressure from
school/work (I'm a doctoral student working in a research lab) means I
can't fly nearly as much as I'd like.

I imagine that other folks who weren't raised around flying would be
even harder to get interested/keep interested in the face of the other
commitments. I -want- to do this, and I have trouble making time for
it, and affording it. It would be a tough sell to someone in my age
group if he/she didn't already love aviation, I think.

Ryan

On Dec 17, 2:03 pm, wrote:



On Dec 17, 3:23 pm, Brad wrote:

On Dec 17, 11:57 am, bildan wrote:

On Dec 17, 9:44 am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Dec 17, 4:08 pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:22 am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Dec 17, 2:20 pm, wrote:

As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person
who now has
their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
FWIW
UH

There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might
therefore be
ensnared slightly earlier: someone
- with a teenager that is spreading their wings and
becoming
interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls
- who would like to extend the time that their offspring
wants to do something with their father

Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

My $.02
We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age
bracket,
then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. I think
initial
exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. The very
young
people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents
or
relatives who also pay for their flying. By age 18, they're
usually
pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until
later
(sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and
stay
involved in soaring. In my case, I always wanted to fly. I
just
couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.

Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for
the
18-40 hole.
Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and
winch
launches
are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about
3
hours
work to earn.

I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the
other
gender,
family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests
are
more significant.

I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
particularly hard time in this economy. Soaring tends to do well
in
countries with a thriving middle class. The wealthy want jets, not
gliders. If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
Gulfstream. Lower classes just want affordable health care.

In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children
living
with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children.
The
story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their
house
to a foreclosure. Some of these young adults really want to fly
but
you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able
to
afford it.

I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
afford.

look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is
that
a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
those toys up for sale now?

Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.

In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and
enjoy
what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to
the
front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.

Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good
and
the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.

Brad- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As in all things, there needs to be a degree of balance. Our club runs
our Pawnee all day with training going all day.
BUT- when "rush hour" starts(single seaters mostly) the second tug
goes in service and we drop back to one training glider for a couple
hrs, then back to 2 for balance of the day.
Once in a while, someone will grumble about training making them wait
a few extra minutes for a tow. That's when I remind them that they
were the guy in the trainer waiting for rush hour to tail off not so
long ago.
Most operations need a balance of both top remain financially viable.
Nobody comes out to soar on the cloudy days, but the training and
rides still go on.
Everybody needs to feel that get to be at the front of the line
sometime.
If soaring clubs and operators tried to survive on just soaring tows
on good days, all but a few would die and the cost for the rest would
be enough to scare a lot of them off.
And- ya gotta replace the ones that drop out or die off.
UH- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So we seem to agree that at least for the US, the biggest road-block
for attracting and retaining young people is cost. This begs the
question: what are the costs? If I read of aero-tow fees of $63, I am
not surprised at all that young folks - even those with a steady job -
are turned off. Therefore, we must find ways of lowering the cost per
flight - at least for the initial part of the training. Any ideas?
Ever heard of a thing called 'Winch' - a machine that reliably
delivers a two-seat trainer to better than pattern altitude for a
fraction of the operating cost of a tow plane? Ever wondered how it is
possible for European clubs to train their students for far less than
over here (US)? (Please, don't give that crap about the government
paying for their planes, etc.!)
There are some really encouraging developments ongoing in the US to
make winches more affordable for clubs. Besides lowering the costs per
flight, a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
younger crowd craves. I realize that not everybody will push his water-
laden $180k glider into the winch queue but perhaps there are many
pilots perfectly happy to do a couple of launches and maybe catch a
thermal for a local flight. This is the segment not served by the club
that charges $50+ per launch but is worth retaining!
I see the winch as an integral part of the solution.
My 2 cents worth ....
Uli Neumann