Boeing 737 Maritime aircraft

(Darrell A. Larose) wrote in news:brb7ha$eau$1
@freenet9.carleton.ca:

user ) writes:
Where were the CP-140 Aurora's you guys fly made?

They were the last P-3 airframes I believe of of Lockheeds production


Thought the last of those was the 3 or 4 built for but never delivered to
Pakistan in the early 90s.

Dave in San Diego
worked for the co. that did the maint training on that project.

--
-
"For once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes
turned skyward;
For there you have been, and there you long to return."
Leonardo da Vinci

"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message hlink.net...
s.p.i. wrote:
"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
link.net...

The 737 MMA is based on the 737-800 but has a bunch of modifications,
including a -900's wings, heavier gear, and a weapon bay forward of
the wing
carry-through.

So I see that Boeing has old info on their website...Sorry about that
Thom.

What follows is mostly playing Devil's advocate. I'm of very mixed minds on
MMA and don't entirely care for either of the remaining options.

Yeah, its a real Hobson's Choice for NAVAIR. Boeing is only worried
about keeping thier production lines open, and not providing the
warfighters an optimized platform. At least the airframes would be
new(even if the design isn't)which is a big plus over the LM offering.

Its gonna take some engineering to come up with that bomb bay.

Well, it does miss the wing structures, so it's not that hard. Fortunately,
the weights carried are fairly small, so the 737 MMA doens't have to worry
too much about CG shifts.

True, but its a big notch out of the pressure tube. Floors and
bulkheads will have to be strengthened and all those angles could well
lead to fatigue issues someday.
Of course my favorite:
combat vulnerability improvements?

A concern, of course. But how much survivability does the P-3 itself have?
It's stilll fundamentally an airliner airframe (a 1950s one at that). Basic
things like fuel tank self-sealing and inerting seem obvious, but is any MPA
going to survive well against a determined attack?
As user mentioned, the P-3 went through some surviviability mods. Sure
the P-3 was a civil design initially, but one that was inherently more
robust than a 737NG. Four engines versus 2 is just one issue,
protection of the electrical system from easy kills is going to be
vital on these glass cockpit designs. Installation of fuel tank foam
on the P-3 as an afterthought cost that platform in terms of
maintenance costs and performance. Yet the DHL MANPADS encounter
vividly shows protection from hydrodynamic ram induced fires will be a
must.
With the change to ops in the littorals, the P-3 successor stands a
much better chance at getting shot at during its career.
Because so many of the missions these civil airframes are expected to
perform have never seen fire in anger, it appears that there is a
dangerous lack of consideration for the combat survivability of the
ACS MC2A MMA KC767 etc. I guess the powers that be are too worried
about getting funded with what they have now than worry about what
they -wrongly- view as a nebulous threat. It will bite somebody in the
ass one day-you heard it here first.
Instead of just focusing on keeping their production lines open, the
manufacturers would do well to start pioneering vulenrability
improvements. Since DHL it can even be seen as a commercially smart
thing to do.


While there is no doubt a lot of PR spin in the descriptions of these
flights, they certainly give the impression that the plane is agile enough
and has sufficient power reserves to function down low if it needs to. Not
as good as the P-3, and they admit that, but the tradeoff for speed and max
alt is not a simple one.

Since the 737 NG was designed for ETOPS, I'll bet money the
barnstorming has an ETOPS engine out flavor to it. The ability to
maneuver down low with adequate endurance is a big question I have.
The mission is in transition with BAMS however. If it evolves into a
situation where the MMA is mostly a control platfrom for UAVs then the
73 would make the most sense.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Dave in San Diego ) writes:
(Darrell A. Larose) wrote in news:brb7ha$eau$1
@freenet9.carleton.ca:

user ) writes:
Where were the CP-140 Aurora's you guys fly made?

They were the last P-3 airframes I believe of of Lockheeds production


Thought the last of those was the 3 or 4 built for but never delivered to
Pakistan in the early 90s.

Dave in San Diego
worked for the co. that did the maint training on that project.

I believe our 3 (140119 - 140121) CP-140A Arcturus TOS 1993, are those
airframes, The fleet of 18 CP-140 Aurora aircraft were TOS starting in 1980

(Darrell A. Larose) wrote in message ...
Global Security has a good illustration of the 737 MMA at:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...mma-boeing.jpg

or if this wraps try:

http://tinyurl.com/yveo

Boeing needs to update their info(is the old info a sign of the
company's disarray?). Using the 800 fuselage, the bomb bay will be
aft. Either way they are converting the bins. The aft position would
give more volume. Of course thats an even bigger notch out of the
pressure tube.

"Boeing is refining its MMA proposal for a design based on the Boeing
737 airliner, but has upgraded its entry from the 737-700
design--which would have the wings of the 737-800--to a 737-800
aircraft fitted with 737-900 wings. The 737-800 design features
10-foot fuselage extensions, both fore and aft of the wing, that would
allow for more internal mission space, and relocation of the internal
weapons bay (possibly a lengthened bay) from the forward fuselage to a
position aft of the wing. Additional fuel tanks would allow the crew
greater flexibility in managing the aircraft's center of gravity. The
extensions also would provide more surface area for antennas; the
737-900 wing would be internally strengthened to support an extra
10,000 pounds in the aircraft's gross weight"

They were eventually delivered in late 90s, as I seem to remember. My
squadron did the delivery.

Tom in Pax River
----------------------------------------------------------
"Dave in San Diego" wrote in message


Thought the last of those was the 3 or 4 built for but never delivered to
Pakistan in the early 90s.

Dave in San Diego
worked for the co. that did the maint training on that project.

--
-
"For once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes
turned skyward;
For there you have been, and there you long to return."
Leonardo da Vinci

s.p.i. wrote:
(Darrell A. Larose) wrote in message
...
Global Security has a good illustration of the 737 MMA at:


http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../mma-boeing.jp
g

or if this wraps try:

http://tinyurl.com/yveo

Boeing needs to update their info(is the old info a sign of the
company's disarray?).

That's not a Boeing website, you know.

Boeing just isn't publicizing this program much. Neither is LM, for that
matter. Neither company has a dedicated web page for MMA, as far as I can
tell.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

"Thomas Schoene" ) writes:
s.p.i. wrote:
(Darrell A. Larose) wrote in message
...
Global Security has a good illustration of the 737 MMA at:


http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../mma-boeing.jp
g

or if this wraps try:

http://tinyurl.com/yveo

Boeing needs to update their info(is the old info a sign of the
company's disarray?).

That's not a Boeing website, you know.

Boeing just isn't publicizing this program much. Neither is LM, for that
matter. Neither company has a dedicated web page for MMA, as far as I can
tell.

But it's still a pretty good discussion! By the time this is decided it
could be almost any airframe.

"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message nk.net...
s.p.i. wrote:
(Darrell A. Larose) wrote in message
...
Global Security has a good illustration of the 737 MMA at:


http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../mma-boeing.jp
g

or if this wraps try:

http://tinyurl.com/yveo

Boeing needs to update their info(is the old info a sign of the
company's disarray?).

That's not a Boeing website, you know.
True, but they still have this out there...
http://www.boeing.com/ids/allsystems...3/story09.html


Boeing just isn't publicizing this program much. Neither is LM, for that
matter. Neither company has a dedicated web page for MMA, as far as I can
tell.


True too, LM's info on the Orion 21 is vanishingly sparse

s.p.i. wrote:

"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message nk.net...


s.p.i. wrote:


(Darrell A. Larose) wrote in message
...


Global Security has a good illustration of the 737 MMA at:




http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../mma-boeing.jp
g


or if this wraps try:

http://tinyurl.com/yveo


Boeing needs to update their info(is the old info a sign of the
company's disarray?).


That's not a Boeing website, you know.


True, but they still have this out there...
http://www.boeing.com/ids/allsystems...3/story09.html



Boeing just isn't publicizing this program much. Neither is LM, for that
matter. Neither company has a dedicated web page for MMA, as far as I can
tell.




True too, LM's info on the Orion 21 is vanishingly sparse


I do not think the final ORD i(Operational Requirements Document) is out
and I don't think there has been any announcement of when an RFP might
hit the street. Until the ORD is complete neither knows quite what the
MMA will be expected to do.

Bob

s.p.i. wrote:
"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
nk.net...
s.p.i. wrote:
(Darrell A. Larose) wrote in message
...
Global Security has a good illustration of the 737 MMA at:



http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../mma-boeing.jp
g

or if this wraps try:

http://tinyurl.com/yveo

Boeing needs to update their info(is the old info a sign of the
company's disarray?).

That's not a Boeing website, you know.
True, but they still have this out there...
http://www.boeing.com/ids/allsystems...3/story09.html


Well, yes. But it's a periodical newsletter (though it doesn't have a date
on it). What shoud they dio, rewrite all their old press releases and
newsletters every time a program changes? That would sort of undermine the
value of these as historical records, wouldn't it? (Not to mention eating
up huge amounts of resources.)

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)