Trig TT21 Transponder ... reports?

On Aug 18, 11:31*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 18, 8:32*pm, Andy wrote:





On Aug 18, 10:04*am, jcarlyle wrote:

Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. *You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. *That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

Andy you were thinking of FIS-B (not TIS-B) only being provided by a
UAT receiver. FIS-B is weather, TFR, NOTMAM etc. basically like XM
weather (free but not quite as capable, at least today).... And you
can't have that in a contest even if you want it. :-)

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting. Any other
ADS-B receiver being proposed into contest glider cockpits would needs
some form of similar setting, and either a tamper proof way to set
that on the ground or a way to log if a pilot changes it. I don't see
that ever happening with a GA device and if the ADS-B receiver (like
the Mire UAT prototype) is relying on a serial data link and an
external device like a PDA running third party traffic display/warning
software then it's probalby hard to make that not easily hackable. And
every third party software package reading that data would need to
have settings/ways of checking known and trusted by rules committees/
contest directors. The smarts that does the "stealth mode" selective
filtering/fuzzying up of received data really needs to live within the
box, effectively also meaning that the alert software also needs to
live within that box and not on an external system --as you probalby
need the alert system having access to the raw unfuzzied/unfiltered
data.

Darryl

Thanks - I could not care less about FIS-B, so the tradeoff is having
something I don't need eventually (in-flight Notams etc IF I'm near a
ground station) vs. something I do need now (glider-glider intelligent
collision avoidance). I also like the fact that 1090ES will be
required for jets. It makes me wonder why GA wouldn't tend to adopt
1090ES since we already know that relatively affordable solutions are
available.

9B

On Aug 18, 11:31*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 18, 8:32*pm, Andy wrote:





On Aug 18, 10:04*am, jcarlyle wrote:

Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. *You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. *That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

Andy you were thinking of FIS-B (not TIS-B) only being provided by a
UAT receiver. FIS-B is weather, TFR, NOTMAM etc. basically like XM
weather (free but not quite as capable, at least today).... And you
can't have that in a contest even if you want it. :-)

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting. Any other
ADS-B receiver being proposed into contest glider cockpits would needs
some form of similar setting, and either a tamper proof way to set
that on the ground or a way to log if a pilot changes it. I don't see
that ever happening with a GA device and if the ADS-B receiver (like
the Mire UAT prototype) is relying on a serial data link and an
external device like a PDA running third party traffic display/warning
software then it's probalby hard to make that not easily hackable. And
every third party software package reading that data would need to
have settings/ways of checking known and trusted by rules committees/
contest directors. The smarts that does the "stealth mode" selective
filtering/fuzzying up of received data really needs to live within the
box, effectively also meaning that the alert software also needs to
live within that box and not on an external system --as you probalby
need the alert system having access to the raw unfuzzied/unfiltered
data.

Darryl

Also - I agree the contest requirements argue heavily for a glider-
specific solution - most likely PowerFlarm in the US, since the
unfiltered ADS-B technology would lead to leech-heavy contest
behavior. I would expect it to be banned in much the same way we ban
artificial horizons.

9B

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting.

Couldn't a pilot just have 2 Flarms, 1 to turn stealth mode logs in
with and a separate one to leach with?

-Paul

On Aug 19, 12:10*am, sisu1a wrote:
BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting.

Couldn't a pilot just have 2 Flarms, 1 to turn stealth mode logs in
with and a separate one to leach with?

-Paul

You can always try to sneak prohibited equipment into your glider in a
contest - like an artificial horizon, XM radio weather, etc. Be
prepared to get penalized if you get caught.

I do wonder whether contest rules eventually will require pilots to
disable ADS-B receivers that don't have a contest mode - or will just
accept the leeching, "heads-down" and stealth (turning off your ADS-B
transmitter) behavior that would result from broad adoption of
technology that lacks a contest mode.

Another argument in favor of PowerFlarm for competition flying.

9B

On 8/19/2010 1:47 AM, Andy wrote:
On Aug 18, 11:31 pm, Darryl wrote:
On Aug 18, 8:32 pm, wrote:





On Aug 18, 10:04 am, wrote:

Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

Andy you were thinking of FIS-B (not TIS-B) only being provided by a
UAT receiver. FIS-B is weather, TFR, NOTMAM etc. basically like XM
weather (free but not quite as capable, at least today).... And you
can't have that in a contest even if you want it. :-)

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting. Any other
ADS-B receiver being proposed into contest glider cockpits would needs
some form of similar setting, and either a tamper proof way to set
that on the ground or a way to log if a pilot changes it. I don't see
that ever happening with a GA device and if the ADS-B receiver (like
the Mire UAT prototype) is relying on a serial data link and an
external device like a PDA running third party traffic display/warning
software then it's probalby hard to make that not easily hackable. And
every third party software package reading that data would need to
have settings/ways of checking known and trusted by rules committees/
contest directors. The smarts that does the "stealth mode" selective
filtering/fuzzying up of received data really needs to live within the
box, effectively also meaning that the alert software also needs to
live within that box and not on an external system --as you probalby
need the alert system having access to the raw unfuzzied/unfiltered
data.

Darryl

Also - I agree the contest requirements argue heavily for a glider-
specific solution - most likely PowerFlarm in the US, since the
unfiltered ADS-B technology would lead to leech-heavy contest
behavior. I would expect it to be banned in much the same way we ban
artificial horizons.

9B

Why are artificial horizons banned in contests?

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 19, 10:03*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/19/2010 1:47 AM, Andy wrote:



On Aug 18, 11:31 pm, Darryl *wrote:
On Aug 18, 8:32 pm, *wrote:

On Aug 18, 10:04 am, *wrote:

Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. *You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. *That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

Andy you were thinking of FIS-B (not TIS-B) only being provided by a
UAT receiver. FIS-B is weather, TFR, NOTMAM etc. basically like XM
weather (free but not quite as capable, at least today).... And you
can't have that in a contest even if you want it. :-)

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting. Any other
ADS-B receiver being proposed into contest glider cockpits would needs
some form of similar setting, and either a tamper proof way to set
that on the ground or a way to log if a pilot changes it. I don't see
that ever happening with a GA device and if the ADS-B receiver (like
the Mire UAT prototype) is relying on a serial data link and an
external device like a PDA running third party traffic display/warning
software then it's probalby hard to make that not easily hackable. And
every third party software package reading that data would need to
have settings/ways of checking known and trusted by rules committees/
contest directors. The smarts that does the "stealth mode" selective
filtering/fuzzying up of received data really needs to live within the
box, effectively also meaning that the alert software also needs to
live within that box and not on an external system --as you probalby
need the alert system having access to the raw unfuzzied/unfiltered
data.

Darryl

Also - I agree the contest requirements argue heavily for a glider-
specific solution - most likely PowerFlarm in the US, since the
unfiltered ADS-B technology would lead to leech-heavy contest
behavior. I would expect it to be banned in much the same way we ban
artificial horizons.

9B

Why are artificial horizons banned in contests?

--
Mike Schumann

2 words: IFR gaggles. Not to mention that we fly all our contests
in controlled airspace, so you'd have to pick up instrument clearances
and thus not be on the contest frequency.

They WERE allowed at one time, though. Reichmann describes
attempting to use a climb in a towering cu to overtake the field,
except that a hailshaft developed and shot him down.

-- Matt

On Aug 19, 12:10*am, sisu1a wrote:
BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting.

Couldn't a pilot just have 2 Flarms, 1 to turn stealth mode logs in
with and a separate one to leach with?

-Paul

You'd have to smuggle it aboard and risk being disqualified and then
if you turned it on both Flarms are going to alert on the other
devices presence. If anybody knows if there is a way to suppress those
warnings and have the smuggled aboard device usable for leaching (e.g.
I wonder on PowerFLARM you might be able to turn the volume down and
even if the built-in display is useless because it has popped up a
traffic alert you might be able to bring up the moving map on an
attached PDA - but you might need to suppress the traffic alert pop-up
on that display (if the software supports that)).

Flarm also logs random position data of other aircraft in the IGC log
file and that can be uploaded to Flarm to do things like help Flarm
analyze effective range etc. and improve their products. I wonder if
turning on another Flarm or PowerFLARM unit in the same glider, even
if you were stupid enough to somehow turn off all the annoying alerts
between each unit and try to use it to leach off somebody that your
"official" FLARM unit would capture the presence of the "illegal" unit
in its IGC log file. Of course to catch you somebody really have to
suspect you are cheating and would then have to analyze your Flarm IGC
log file.

I kind of see it as the workable way in glider contests is you allow/
require Flarm based products and ban other ADS-B receivers (not
transmitters), Mode S TIS, even maybe in-cockpit reception of SPOT
trackers, etc. or you have to open the gates fully and allow any
tracking technology receivers and the full on leaching that probably
implies.


Darryl

Artificial horizons are banned because cloud flying is not permitted
in contests. It's not permitted in controlled airspace the USA at all
unless the glider is IFR equipped and the pilot has a glider
instrument rating; which is possible by the regulations, but I've not
figured out how to do the practical test! The missed approach would
be interesting.

Cloud flying in Class G airspace is technically permitted, but
probably an unwise activity.

On 8/19/2010 9:28 AM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
Artificial horizons are banned because cloud flying is not permitted
in contests. It's not permitted in controlled airspace the USA at all
unless the glider is IFR equipped and the pilot has a glider
instrument rating; which is possible by the regulations, but I've not
figured out how to do the practical test! The missed approach would
be interesting.

Cloud flying in Class G airspace is technically permitted, but
probably an unwise activity.

I can understand that cloud flying is banned, but banning an instrument
that could save your life because it might be used to violate the rules
sounds like a really crazy idea.

--
Mike Schumann

On 8/19/2010 9:23 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 19, 12:10 am, wrote:
BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting.

Couldn't a pilot just have 2 Flarms, 1 to turn stealth mode logs in
with and a separate one to leach with?

-Paul

You'd have to smuggle it aboard and risk being disqualified and then
if you turned it on both Flarms are going to alert on the other
devices presence. If anybody knows if there is a way to suppress those
warnings and have the smuggled aboard device usable for leaching (e.g.
I wonder on PowerFLARM you might be able to turn the volume down and
even if the built-in display is useless because it has popped up a
traffic alert you might be able to bring up the moving map on an
attached PDA - but you might need to suppress the traffic alert pop-up
on that display (if the software supports that)).

Flarm also logs random position data of other aircraft in the IGC log
file and that can be uploaded to Flarm to do things like help Flarm
analyze effective range etc. and improve their products. I wonder if
turning on another Flarm or PowerFLARM unit in the same glider, even
if you were stupid enough to somehow turn off all the annoying alerts
between each unit and try to use it to leach off somebody that your
"official" FLARM unit would capture the presence of the "illegal" unit
in its IGC log file. Of course to catch you somebody really have to
suspect you are cheating and would then have to analyze your Flarm IGC
log file.

I kind of see it as the workable way in glider contests is you allow/
require Flarm based products and ban other ADS-B receivers (not
transmitters), Mode S TIS, even maybe in-cockpit reception of SPOT
trackers, etc. or you have to open the gates fully and allow any
tracking technology receivers and the full on leaching that probably
implies.


Darryl


Banning ADS-B in contests???? We are all trying to increase the safety
of aviation by increasing situational awareness for all pilots and you
guys are talking about banning one of the most promising technologies
out there because someone might use it to cheat in a contest?????

Does anyone have any concept on how absurd this makes us look outside
(even inside) of our small insular world???

--
Mike Schumann