Powerflarm's unknown effect on the first contests in US

On Jan 9, 12:32*pm, WR wrote:

As one of my racing buddies put it "next year will be an unrestricted
technical free-for-all, don't be the guy who brings a knife to a
gunfight."

It has always been a technical free-for-all, within the constraints of
the class that was chosen. I flew Std class for years in an
uncompetitive glider, and I was known to have described that as
bringing a knife to a gun fight. It only took money to solve that
problem.

The amount of money to buy PowerFLARM and a display device is
insignificant compared to the investment in a new glider.

I'm still not convinced that the competitive advantage of having a PDA
showing climb rates will be that great but I'm looking forward to
trying it. What I need is a system that monitors my task average
climb rate, my current climb rate, the climb rates of all others in
the area, and then guides me to the best next thermal taking into
account deviation from course line and probability that the thermal
will still be there when I arrive. Of course it will also tell me the
best time to leave the one I'm in now.

I expect it will be a while before a PDA system does that better than
the pilot and even then it won't have the skill to find the unmarked
thermal that's better than all the marked ones. Luck and skill are
not going to go away as significant factors in contest results.

Andy (GY)

At 17:57 09 January 2011, chris wrote:

The ideal setup is a duo discus with large format computer screens,
the guy in back can just operate the computers and track all the other
gliders and navigate to each marked thermal.

And the GIB can also run the electronic counter measures and man the
machine guns when appropriate.

Jim Beckman

I think there is too much FUD around Flarm (That's IBM speak for Fear
Uncertainty and Doubt)

Experience of introducing Flarm in the south African racing environment
was effectively painless. There was never a decrease in safety
attributable to Flarm.

To my knowledge there was no material increase in leeching. If you can
keep up to leech, the Flarm is unlikely to help much...
If you are close enough to the other thermal to be able to use the
information about relative climb rate - you can probably verify the
differential as effectively visually. Certainly I am not aware of anyone
gaining advantage this way.

Have contests become safer? Hard to say - but I am a lot more
comfortable with no beeps emanating from the flarm. OK - in my case that
is generally because the others are so far ahead.

And yes - mid airs, in contests and others were a significant percentage
of fatals in SA. There are at least three pilots who would still be with
us if they had Flarm working. Since Flarm became common we have not had
any. Apparently Flarm does what it says on the box - improves safety in
glider operations...

Some use it well, some don't - as with everything.

Cheers
Bruce

On 2011/01/09 4:03 AM, hretting wrote:
First, my apologies for not spelling " leech" correctly and passing it
on to you. Leeching was brought up by an earlier thread and I
responded to it.
My stand is that while you believe the two midairs would have been
prevented by FLARM....I believe that the rapid insertion of Flarm into
the contest regime will create a risk greater than the one we are
trying to reduce.
I believe to reduce that specific risk, we allow for the "Novelty"
period followed by the "Functional check-out" period before we include
it into the contest regime.
Flarm will change the "paranoia" level of the group. Not right
away.....but slowly. This is the dynamics that we must guard.
First the dip, then the spike, then the balance.

You're right about the knuckleheads not looking out.....
But I do.
R






--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

Am 09.01.2011 19:33, wrote:
On Jan 9, 11:16 am, Peter wrote:
Am 09.01.2011 13:14, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 01:04:10 +0100, Peter Scholz wrote:

Am 08.01.2011 15:28, wrote:
PowerFlarm will be more capable than Flarm units in use in Europe.

Do you have any details about the additional capabilities?

Essentially PCAS and data-out for a transponder with squitter.
Seehttp://www.powerflarm.com/

I'm aware of that, but what would be the "sporting implication" of that
additional information, as mentioned by UH?
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE

Look at the web site for LS8000. One feature is the use of Flarm info
to identify a marker ("target") in the distance, get his climb info,
and calculate your arrival height at his thermal. This, and other
potential developments of these principles(display of the "better"
target to chase), have quite significant implications on the character
of gliding competition in my view. I seem to remember, but haven't
confirmed, that PowerFlarm will have greater range than current Flarm.
UH

LK8000 (as all other peripheral devices) can only interpret the
information it gets from the Flram device. Since Version 4.0 targets in
stealth mode will NOT transmit Track,TurnRate,GroundSpeed and
ClimbRate in the PFLAA record. RelativeVertical will be transmitted
degraded, unless the target is concidered to be a danger target.

Therefore there is IMHO no way to get the (tactical important) data from
a Flarm target in stealth mode. So it's up to the pilot by setting
stealth mode ON/OFF to decide if other pilots can receive those tactical
information or not.

Re. range: from my experience the effective transmit range of the FLARM
signal is strongly influenced by the position of the Flarm aerial,
especially with modern CFK gliders. On my flights I typically receive
Flarm targets in a distance of up to 15-20km. But some targets are
barely visible at all, due to a bad antenna position.

Even if PowerFLARM has an extended range compared to standard FLARM
devices (although I have found no confirmation yet for this), it would
not change much, as any information about a gliders height & climb rate,
that is further away than 25km, would not influence my tactical short
term decisions very much. 25km are a long way to go for my ASW24, and in
the heigths we operate, I would usually need another lift on the way to
get there comfortably. Maybe that is different where you fly,

I have never flown a contest in the US, but here in (continental) Europe
no one seems to have a problem with the possible additional tactical
information you can get with FLARM in a contest. Those who worry can set
the stealth mode.

So, relax, fly your contests with FLARM for a year, and I predict the
discussion about mandatory stealth mode etc. will be over before the end
of the seasan 2011.
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE

Peter, there is a difference between "transmitted through the air" and
"transmitted by wire to your PDA".
Then I remind that transmission is broadcasted, and if a "target" is in
threat with another aircraft 10km aways,
maybe because in the same thermal, then it will transmit all informations to
everybody, in the air.
Enough said.

"Peter Scholz" ha scritto nel messaggio
...

LK8000 (as all other peripheral devices) can only interpret the
information it gets from the Flram device. Since Version 4.0 targets in
stealth mode will NOT transmit Track,TurnRate,GroundSpeed and
ClimbRate in the PFLAA record. RelativeVertical will be transmitted
degraded, unless the target is concidered to be a danger target.

Therefore there is IMHO no way to get the (tactical important) data from a
Flarm target in stealth mode. So it's up to the pilot by setting stealth
mode ON/OFF to decide if other pilots can receive those tactical
information or not.

On Jan 9, 8:06*am, Andy wrote:
On Jan 8, 6:03*pm, hretting wrote:

Leeching was brought up by an earlier thread and I
responded to it.

Sorry. That was a joke - it's what the winking emoticon means.

The climb rate displays in WinPilot/SeeYou do look pretty
interesting. *We'll have to see how much they really turn out to be
useful - or a distraction. *It's one thing to be able to see a glider
with a good climb rate on a screen and quite another to be able to get
to the indicated location, find the thermal and actually achieve the
same climb rate.

The only way to know is to try it. I think the RC approach for 2011 is
a responsible and balanced one given both the safety potential and the
uncertainties. I for one would feel pretty bad if we lost another
pilot having ignored the opportunity to do something significant.

Stealth Mode on/off will, I suspect, be a major decision to make as we
get going. I'd encourage the RC to collect feedback contest-by-contest
so we can learn and adapt with each contest experience.

9B

Hi,
I've updated my web site with details and pricing on the new
PowerFlarm Antileaching Device.
It looks very interesting. Its ability to totally prevent leaching is
amazing.
It will be compatible with all Flarm Units and PowerFlarm Units. I
have many pre-orders. It will be ready for immediate shipment soon.
You can see details and pre-order he

http://www.craggyaero.com/cloaking.htm

I can’ wait to fly with one!

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

I see the version you have on your web site is for 125/250VAC.
When will you have a 12VDC version available?

At 15:13 10 January 2011, Richard wrote:
Hi,
I've updated my web site with details and pricing on the new
PowerFlarm Antileaching Device.
It looks very interesting. Its ability to totally prevent leaching is
amazing.
It will be compatible with all Flarm Units and PowerFlarm Units. I
have many pre-orders. It will be ready for immediate shipment soon.
You can see details and pre-order he

http://www.craggyaero.com/cloaking.htm

I can=92 wait to fly with one!

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Jan 10, 7:38*am, Big Wings wrote:
I see the version you have on your web site is for 125/250VAC.
When will you have a 12VDC version available?

At 15:13 10 January 2011, Richard wrote:



Hi,
I've updated my web site with details and pricing on the new
PowerFlarm Antileaching Device.
It looks very interesting. *Its ability to totally prevent leaching is
amazing.
It will be compatible with all Flarm Units and PowerFlarm Units. *I
have many pre-orders. *It will be ready for immediate shipment soon.
You can see details and pre-order he

http://www.craggyaero.com/cloaking.htm

I can=92 wait to fly with one!

Richard
www.craggyaero.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OH No! I see a preorder recall in my future.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 08:56:29 +0200, BruceGreeff
wrote:

I think there is too much FUD around Flarm (That's IBM speak for Fear
Uncertainty and Doubt)

We've been through the same "FUD" in Italy ;-)

Experience of introducing Flarm in the south African racing environment
was effectively painless. There was never a decrease in safety
attributable to Flarm.

I've flown more than 20 competitions, maybe 30, since Flarm was
available in Europe (2005 I think). So far, the races have been safer
in my opinion. No collisions between Flarm-equipped gliders.

To my knowledge there was no material increase in leeching. If you can
keep up to leech, the Flarm is unlikely to help much...

Since Flarm "radar" or display has been available (a couple of racing
seasons), it has been just a little easier to catch-up with a glider I
was trying to leech, after I lost visual contact for a while.

If you are close enough to the other thermal to be able to use the
information about relative climb rate - you can probably verify the
differential as effectively visually.

The climb rate is so unreliable (most probably uncompensated) that it
never helped me locate a thermal I didn't see earlier (gliders, birds
etc.).
It has helped me understand that I was not centered correctly, on some
occasions.
Once the two glider are established in the same thermal in a steady
climb, the value shown by the display becomes comparable and reliable.
By them it's too late to be of any use except: "darn, I have to
squeeze the best lift there apparently is".

Under cloudstreets, or convergence lines, it is now easier to compare
the different flight paths and decisions. I may say that I now learn
much more from each flight.


Have contests become safer?

I believe contest are safer. And, some may be surprised by this
statement, more fun for me.
Let me explain. Racing gliders are now a bit easier to spot in the
sky, and I get more "awareness" of how they're doing. So, I feel more
involved.

. There are at least three pilots who would still be with
us if they had Flarm working.

Same in Italy. There was a collision, killing one. The other glider
had no Flarm on board.


Some use it well, some don't - as with everything.

Cloud flying is prohibited in Italy. In the pre-start tactical game, I
have seen Flarm objects flying higher than cloudbase, above me.
Was Flarm only a witness of their behaviour, or an encouragement? I
don't know, but I know that loggers and software allow for analysis
and, if guilty, penalization of the offenders.

aldo cernezzi
-
www.voloavela.it
The Italian Gliding magazine



Cheers
Bruce