More plane ownership?

"TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote:
...I also don't think GA pilots
honestly account for how long a flight takes.

True. I often fly from Mobile to Dothan, AL on business. The round trip
drive from my house is 6.5 hours. The round trip flight is 2 hours, 40
min. - flying time that is. But here's the real story:

get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.
drive to KBFM: 15 min.
get in gate, load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
oil) 20 min.
start, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 15 min. (it's a long taxi)
fly to KDHN: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, leave fuel order: 10 min.
get a ride to the terminal & pick up rent car: 15 min.
drive to customer's site: 10 min.
drive back to KDHN: 10 min.
get weather, get NOTAMs & file: 10 min.
preflight, startup, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 10 min.
fly to KBFM: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, unload & secure airplane, get out gate : 10 min.
drive home: 15 min.

Total: 5.17 hours.
So I save an hour+ by flying, and that's on a good day when everything
goes perfectly. Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
anyway. I hate that drive.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

In article ,
"Dan Luke" wrote:

"TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote:
...I also don't think GA pilots
honestly account for how long a flight takes.

True. I often fly from Mobile to Dothan, AL on business. The round trip
drive from my house is 6.5 hours. The round trip flight is 2 hours, 40
min. - flying time that is. But here's the real story:

get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.
drive to KBFM: 15 min.
get in gate, load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
oil) 20 min.
start, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 15 min. (it's a long taxi)
fly to KDHN: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, leave fuel order: 10 min.
get a ride to the terminal & pick up rent car: 15 min.
drive to customer's site: 10 min.
drive back to KDHN: 10 min.
get weather, get NOTAMs & file: 10 min.
preflight, startup, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 10 min.
fly to KBFM: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, unload & secure airplane, get out gate : 10 min.
drive home: 15 min.

Total: 5.17 hours.
So I save an hour+ by flying, and that's on a good day when everything
goes perfectly. Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
anyway. I hate that drive.


It gets better when your plane is in a hangar in your back yard:

get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.

load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
oil) 20 min.

Taxi to runway: 5 min (also serves as engine warmup)

Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
anyway. I hate that drive.

Amen... Even if they took the same time, I would rather fly... The 6.5 hour
drive is just that, 6.5 hours of sitting and driving the car. The other way
is only 2.66 hours of 'driving' the plane and 3.8 hours of other activities
that are not nearly as boring as staring at the car in front of me. (plus
the car doesn't have a directional autopilot g)

Dave
N9560L at GLS
74 Grumman AA5


"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote:
...I also don't think GA pilots
honestly account for how long a flight takes.

True. I often fly from Mobile to Dothan, AL on business. The round trip
drive from my house is 6.5 hours. The round trip flight is 2 hours, 40
min. - flying time that is. But here's the real story:

get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.
drive to KBFM: 15 min.
get in gate, load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
oil) 20 min.
start, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 15 min. (it's a long taxi)
fly to KDHN: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, leave fuel order: 10 min.
get a ride to the terminal & pick up rent car: 15 min.
drive to customer's site: 10 min.
drive back to KDHN: 10 min.
get weather, get NOTAMs & file: 10 min.
preflight, startup, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 10 min.
fly to KBFM: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, unload & secure airplane, get out gate : 10 min.
drive home: 15 min.

Total: 5.17 hours.
So I save an hour+ by flying, and that's on a good day when everything
goes perfectly. Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
anyway. I hate that drive.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

Once upon a time - 6 college "kids" wanted to go to Virginia from Texas for
spring break. 3 went by commertial air carrier and 3 traveled in a Mooney
owned by a friend's father.

Longs story short - The commertial fliers flew from IAH to ORF with one
layover/plane change. First flight was delayed, they had to take another
connecting flight that was now overbooked, one guy got bumped, and the
others waited patiently with him.

The GA fliers left an hour after the commertial fliers were originally
supposed to be in the air (due to preflight and all) from another Houston
airport (HOU) and flew directly to MFV - 10 minutes from the vacation
getaway with 2 stops for fuel and R&R (sorry - no bathroom in a mooney).
The airport courtesy car took us to our final destination and refused a tip.
We arrived at "the getaway" about 6:30 pm (had left Houston around 7:45 that
morning) and were well on our way to enjoying ourselves when our buddies
arrived at 11:00 pm after troubling my parents to meet them at the airport,
not arriving on time, and not calling when they knew they would be late.

The return was a bit differrent - we stopped in New Orleans for a day
because we felt like it.

Cost - my 1/3 of the round trip was $300 - competitive with an airline
ticket if not cheaper. OOPS - WRONG - that trip is what hooked me on GA
flying and it has actually cost me thousands in training, rental, and
gadgets since. WOULD I DO IT AGAIN? HELL YES!

The question here isn't what's cheap - but WHAT IS IT WORTH TO YOU? Dave


"Dave Covert" wrote in message
...
Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
anyway. I hate that drive.

Amen... Even if they took the same time, I would rather fly... The 6.5
hour
drive is just that, 6.5 hours of sitting and driving the car. The other
way
is only 2.66 hours of 'driving' the plane and 3.8 hours of other
activities
that are not nearly as boring as staring at the car in front of me. (plus
the car doesn't have a directional autopilot g)

Dave
N9560L at GLS
74 Grumman AA5


"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote:
...I also don't think GA pilots
honestly account for how long a flight takes.

True. I often fly from Mobile to Dothan, AL on business. The round trip
drive from my house is 6.5 hours. The round trip flight is 2 hours, 40
min. - flying time that is. But here's the real story:

get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.
drive to KBFM: 15 min.
get in gate, load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
oil) 20 min.
start, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 15 min. (it's a long taxi)
fly to KDHN: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, leave fuel order: 10 min.
get a ride to the terminal & pick up rent car: 15 min.
drive to customer's site: 10 min.
drive back to KDHN: 10 min.
get weather, get NOTAMs & file: 10 min.
preflight, startup, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 10 min.
fly to KBFM: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, unload & secure airplane, get out gate : 10 min.
drive home: 15 min.

Total: 5.17 hours.
So I save an hour+ by flying, and that's on a good day when everything
goes perfectly. Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
anyway. I hate that drive.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)








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TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:

I take a lot of flights around 100nm, and quite frankly I don't think in
any of them I saved any time over driving when I honestly account for
ALL the time the flight took, including planning and preparation.

Yeah, 100 miles is about the break-even point. A few months back, I posted about
picking my mother up at Cape Map in the Maule. That's about 100nm. Had I driven
down, it would've been about two hours down and two back. As it was, it was 45
minutes to the airport and about 15 to get untied and in the air. The air time
was about two hours, and we had about an hour to tie her down and drive home.

About the same either way, but I still think the Maule beats the Parkway.

There's another plus. Mama hates headsets, so she was only able to talk to me for
the 45 minute drive home. That alone is worth the cost of the avgas. :-)

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

David wrote:

Once upon a time - 6 college "kids" wanted to go to Virginia from Texas for
spring break. 3 went by commertial air carrier and 3 traveled in a Mooney
owned by a friend's father.

Nice post. Made me think back. Every round-trip that I've made on the airlines for
personal reasons has had one leg seriously delayed. That ranged from spending the
first night of our honeymoon in Tampa instead of Sanibel due to a broken Delta
airplane to flying Delta back from Knoxville instead of United because United
couldn't handle the headwinds.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

shoot, looking up a plane ticket on the internet takes me longer to do then my flight
planning.
My flight planning consists of basically punching it into duats, printing it out, going
to my plane, punching it into my GPS and away I go.

when I fly to los angeles, it takes about 4-5 hours depending on traffic, I can fly to LA
in 1:15 . No headaches because of traffic. Like today, a bad accident on i-15 near
barstow, 4 dead, highway closed untill at least 10pm tonight (what the news said).


You have to include your flight planning time, as well as door-to-door
time when comparing flying somewhere to driving there, for example. I
take a lot of flights around 100nm, and quite frankly I don't think in
any of them I saved any time over driving when I honestly account for
ALL the time the flight took, including planning and preparation. But I
still do it because I love to fly.

I figure that will change when I start flying longer distances.

Here's a non-pilot checking in and throwing in my $.02.

I bought my 22' cuddy cabin for $750 then sold the blown engine for $300
(scrap/parts) and bought a used trailer - $400

So now I'm into it for $850

Making a long story short, I rebuilt the entire structural system of the
boat myself (try that with the FAA) with the pay as you go program in
the back yard.

Bought a used engine and new hydraulic steering for $2500 (2 year loan @
$140/mo)

Forty hours into service, engine develops a sound. (not good) After some
research and quiet $20 bills to professional mechanics it is determined
that pistons are stretched. (common problem)

I had the bores resized .010 over and did the rest of the overhaul
myself with non-factory FORGED pistons. (try that with the FAA) Parts
cost $850

So now I have boat that is tougher than new (Not prettier) and a fresh
engine with better than new (OEM) parts.

The loan is now paid off.

Total time from initial offer to paid off loan... less than 4 years.
Plus I got the use the boat in various stages of completion (try that
with the FAA)

Government involvement- 1 trip for title transfer
and yearly registration for hull & trailer $50

So--- getting back to your questions..... Here is why I am not flying
(and I DO want to)(badly)

Owning-- from what I am seeing, 50 grand might get you into something
ready to go without impending doom looming overhead. Now I NEED
insurance as a loan requirement. (for 120 months)
For comparison, my boat's full coverage insurance is $35/mo

Renting-- not even in the works. I want to use the plane as a form of
transportation, not for a quick look around. Try leaving a rental in the
Bahamas for three days (idle) and see what happens to the vacation
budget. Flight time to and from would be less than 2 hours.
Most of the uses I have for a plane involve not operating it for a few
days at a time.

Storage-- While not nearly as nice as the back yard, tie-downs seem to
be reasonable, but it's still spending $$ for no enjoyment for as long
as I own it.

Lack of use-- not an issue.. weekends off and more when I plan for it.
Long weekends and vacations USUALLY involve a boat. About 1 out of three
weekends involve boating.

Insurance- Problem #1: If I bought a plane, it would have to be
financed. Financed = required insurance. For the duration of the loan.
Problem #2: Damn near every mishap with a plane renders it unflyable to
the FAA until repaired. Repairs are so expensive that one can't afford
NOT to be insured. Catch 22

Maintenance-- I WANT to become thoroughly knowledgeable of every aspect
of a piece of equipment I trust my life with (boats included). I take
the time to learn how to do EVERYTHING myself- properly.
From an outsiders viewpoint, it seems like the FAA is taking that away
from me; or forcing me PAY someone else to inspect MY work when it is MY
ass on the line. For the inspector, it is a job on the line.
As an automotive mechanic of 8 years, I can count, on one hand, the
number of engine failures that were not the result of poor basic
maintenance (or overcomplicated engine control systems) The engines that
are coming through the dealer these days are good for at least 200,000
miles with nothing more than oil changes and basic tune-up components.
Why are aircraft engine not capable of the same without frequent
inspections?
Granted, cars are DOR (dead on road) more often, but the modern car has
more computing responsibilities than the Apollo that went to the moon.
(really) Strip off all that technology and replace it with some robust
stuff that wasn't made by the lowest bidder and you have an engine that
can go and go and go and go for years on end.

Fear of flying-- I think you may be on to something there. Talk about
being responsible for your own actions and abilities.

And yes... at my current blue collar job, I would not feel good about an
airplane I could afford.

Now some other observations from an outsider.....
When poking around the local GA airport there is a feeling of
intimidation I get that makes me want to high tail it out of there
before I get arrested and cavity searched.

Boating is easy to get into.. just sign here.

Anything that has to do with aviation is centered around the airport
(remember the scary factor, above) and the airport is usually out of
"normal" town. For boating, there is several places scattered through
town and stretching along the coast to lure you in. (Vero Beach, FL)

Chicks dig a new boat more than a 40 year old plane that needs paint.
(can you paint one without the FAA holding your hand?)

Now for a more abstract view.... enclosed cockpits are the demise of
aviation (GA). The problem is, when I spend a weekend or even a day out
on the water, I almost always show up for work on Monday with a sunburn.
Sunburnt people are always questioned about "what did you do this
weekend?" and I am more than happy to fill them in on the weekend's
adventures and sights. Aviation just doesn't get enough "exposure"

Ok ... I'll quit rambling now.
Just gonna sit here and fly around on the X-plane simulator for a
while.......

JD in Vero Beach


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Your situation is exactly what I'm afraid will happen to me. When I finally
decided to buy, the thought was (at first, at least) "boy, if I owned my own
airplane, things would be a lot better." But then my cynical side spoke up
and I realized that if I buy an airplane and decide that I still don't get
enough enjoyment out of it, then I'll have to sell it. Not a pretty
scenario.


"Mark Astley" wrote in message
...
James,

I'm already an airplane owner and I'm completely sympathetic with your
point
of view. At least once a month I wonder if it's all worth it, but that's
probably more a function of how I use my plane rather than strict
economics:
if I was using my plane for business, rather than a weekend escape from
the
usual grind I might not second guess myself so much. But as it stands
now,
even on my modest PA28-140, I've spent a (for me) shocking amount of
money.
It's quite sobering when you realize that the last few years of flying and
maintenance could have provided a nice chunk of your daughter's college
fund
(not to imply that I've put flying in front of my daughter, I've been
saving
for college too, but if I didn't fly I'd have been way ahead of the game).

When I bought my plane I decided that I would give ownership a try for two
years, then rethink the situation. I chose two years because the first
year
is not always representative, especially your first annual. I decided to
buy something modest so I wouldn't break the bank, and in the first year I
was working on an IFR rating so I had plenty of excuses to fly. I'm
halfway
through the trial period now, I have my IFR rating, but few excuses to
fly.
My wife puts up a good front, but flying scares her and she's only been up
twice. She's suggested sailing instead which is inline with your comment
that flying is interesting, but people feel more comfortable on a boat.
My
daughter isn't yet old enough to enjoy this so it's basically just me on
the
weekends. Anticipating that this might happen, I decided that I would try
and fly for charity as another way to use the plane, but I'm waiting to
see
if the 500 hour rule goes into effect (I'm about 100 hours short there).
We'll see how I feel at the end of the year...

So let's see, I think I covered about four threads he is owning worth
it...how can I justify flying...my spouse doesn't like it...I may just
give
up ownership altogether. Oh, I forgot the FAA. Actually, I don't have
enough data to have an opinion the we haven't formally crossed paths
yet,
and I don't think I've owned long enough to fully understand how badly I
may
be getting taken.

cheers,
mark

"James Blakely" wrote in
message
...
Well, I may be someone who can give some information.

Got my pilot's certificate about 5 years age, been a renter ever since.
I
hate renting. So much so, I've decided that I'm not going to fly unless
I
own an airplane. I have enough money saved up so that I can buy my
target
airplane (182RG) outright. I haven't flown in over 6 months. Why? The
economy. I'm looking at that 182RG fund as a pretty nice "rainy day
fund"
if I ever loose my job. (Pretty good possibility, the company I work
for
hasn't made a sale since November 2001.)

The thing I don't like about flying is all the oversight. You sneeze at
the
wrong time, the FAA is threatening you with revocation and civil fines.
Really, I haven't enjoyed flying since the pop-up TFRs started.

So, in looking for something to fill my spare time, I've taken up
sailing.
I don't find it nearly as satisfying as flying, but I'm way more at
ease.
So, although less satisfying, I find it about as enjoyable as flying.

Now, unlike some, I'm planing on being a trailer sailor. I'm not going
to
keep my boat at a marina. (Slips cost about as much as t-hangers do.)
So,
I'm limited to a 22' lead keel or a 27 foot with water ballast boat.
You
can find good used boats in this range for less than $10,000. Hell, a
new
Hunter 27' with water ballast is $17,000, and that includes a trailer.

So, basically, I could buy a new boat and not worry about not having to
lose
all my nest egg. Also, I don't know of any cases of the Coast Guard
dry-docking an entire fleet of boats until some maintenance is
performed.

I find that people are more interested in that I'm a pilot but that they
are
much more willing to go sailing with me than to go flying. So, I find
sailing much more communal than flying.

I'm shocked how anyone can hop into a boat and take off. I guess that's
my
FAA over-regulate-everything indoctrination. Also, I find boaters to be
much less arrogant and much more friendly that pilots.

The really sad thing is, I'm not really missing flying. My medical
expires
in May, I've decided that if I don't suddenly decide that I miss flying,
I'm
going to give it up for good in May. Sometime between now and then I'm
planning on breaking my no rental policy just to go up once again to see
if
I miss it.


"Dave Covert" wrote in message
...
This is something that has puzzled me for a while...

I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have
noticed
that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
boats
are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx
cost
of
a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something
like
$30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on
the
Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most
leave
their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not
cheap
either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.

That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to
take
a
class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay
$150-$250
on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.

After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same
thing?
Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.

Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't
think
that is it.

Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit
more,
but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because
they
might have to tie it down outside?

Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the
boat
in
their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with
the
same time constraints not spring for the plane?

Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance,
but
using a tie-down would make up for that.

Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to
undergo
expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to
shore
when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that
causes
people not to fly?

Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the
challenge
but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow
every
time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?

I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going
to
find
out is to listen to more pilots.

So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email
me
with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I
will
compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea
of
the answer.

Dave
74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
dave(a)thecoverts.com

The price range you're quoting will not buy a practical airplane in my
opinion. You're talking at best a 172 or an Archer. Okay for one or two
people, but not for a family. I think the capacity on the 27' Hunter is 10
people (although it would be very crowded.

Remember, a 182RG costs as much as my house.

Don't get me wrong; I think the FAA oversight is a good thing most of the
time. It seems the FAA just goes overboard sometimes.

In regards to a sport aircraft: in my opinion, it's worthless. I'll just
build an ultralight. (Which I am considering.)


"Dave" wrote in message
...

What I seem to be hearing is there are two main reasons that more pilots
don't own their own aircraft:

1) Not enough 'bang for the buck'. Price only seems to be a factor in so
far only as maintenance is concerned. The 'buy in' cost of a reasonable
plane ($15,000 -$45,000) is within the reach of most would-be owners and
is comparable to what one would pay for a just-as-reasonable boat. The
problem with the cost seems to be on the backside; that is, maintenance
and the fact that it is hard to justify the cost when it is hard to
share with the whole family. A boat costing $30,000 could be shared with
the whole family and is, I guess, seen as an activity in and of itself.
A $30,000 plane could be something that a family of 4 could share in and
have multiple persuits in, but a $30,000 aircraft is for the most part a
means to an end, not the end in and of itself.

2) Big Brother. While some expressed fears of Big Brother in flight
(particularly in the East I bet) most showed distaste for the FAA during
maintenance and annual. The FAA is taking the fun out of plane ownership
by making it more expensive and worrisome than it need to be.

So, how about some opionions about how the upcoming light sport airplane
classification might change some of that? As I understand it, a person
can take an 8 hour course and get a mechanic rating to inspect
(including annual inspection) their own plane. A 2 week course will get
you a rating to actually work on your own plane. Not exactly the same as
working on your own outboard motor, but not exactly the years it takes
to earn an A&P either. You actually stand a chance of inspecting your
own annual, doing the oil and filter changes and if you find something
more serious, having a buddy from 3 hangers down come do the work.
Whould that get some of you Big Brother types in the market?

And how about usefulness? There are some stunning 'kit' planes out there
that could be 100% assembled by professional assemblers (under the sport
plane rules) for reasonable cost ($25,000 with a Cirrus-like built-in
chute) that can take off from a dove/deer field or an inaccesable patch
of surf-fishing beach in just 100-150 feet and carry 500 lbs useful load
(google on Zenith STOL CH701). I mean, to me, a plane I could use with
family and friends as a 'sky jeep' and go DO something besides fly is
circles is intriguing.

So, would a $25,000 all-metal mogas plane with an experimental rating,
150ft take off, a chute and the ability to do much of the annual
yourself make plane ownership sound better? (I'm not saying it could
actually be done, just wondering about your reaction).

Dave