Getting a little sick of it all

MRQB wrote:
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

snip

Rules for buying anything:

1. If it looks like a really great deal and the seller isn't someone you
know that owes you big time, be suspicious, very suspicious.

The brother-in-law that you got the great job for might want to return
the favor, but why would a stranger offer you a "great deal"?

2. If the seller trys to pressure you in any way with things like "only a
fool would pass up this opportunity" or "I have three other buyers so you
have to act now", run away.

If it is such a great deal, there will be lots of potential buyers; why
would the seller care who buys it?

3. If the seller has any problems with you or a third party inspecting
anything related to the item, run away.

People with something to hide don't want you to look too closely.

4. If the seller "just can't seem to find right now" any documentation that
should accompany the sale, run away.

It takes time to prepare phoney documents.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

It's kind of funny. I've owned three airplanes in the last twenty
years...and didn't get a pre-buy inspection on any of 'em.

It was certainly stupid, but it's not quite as bad as it sounds.

The first one was the risky one...I'd been grounded (lack of funds) for
almost eight years, and all of a sudden I could not only afford to start
flying again but could afford my own airplane. I saw a nice '65 Cessna 150
at the local airport with a for-sale sign in it. Got stars in my eyes
(more money than sense) and called the owner.

Jeeze. Didn't even go for a test flight. Just borrowed the logs and pored
over them. Didn't really know *what* I was looking for. I'd never owned a
plane before, didn't really know about STCs or Form 337s or anything. I
went through the logs looking for stuff like major reconstruction. Found
one (apparently minor) wing repair. Owner had claimed that the plane had
never been a trainer, but the first several owners were places like "Smith
Flying Service." So I knew not to believe THAT claim, but everything else
seemed OK.

It did me well, for the two years I owned it. A small problem with master
solenoids going bad several times. Annuals ran ~$500 (mid '80s). Sold it
for just $400 less than I'd bought it for. New owner didn't get a pre-buy,
either, but when the engine has 1500 hours, he probably just counted on it
going bad. I hear it finally got a new engine two owners later.

My second and third airplanes were special cases. The second one was a
co-worker who'd completed a full rebuild of a basket-case Stinson
(including engine rebuild) just 200 hours earlier. Since I was buying half
his interest in the airplane, I figured there wasn't much risk. I ended up
basically just passing wrenches for him, when it came time to work on the
plane.

My third (and current) airplane didn't get a pre-buy either...used
homebuilt. But the A&P who had been doing the annuals on this Fly Baby had
ALSO been doing the annuals of my club Fly Baby (and he was also a former
co-worker). He told me that if I *didn't* buy that airplane, I was nuts.
Hard to argue, when, the previous year, he'd finished the annual inspection
notation with "This is the best Fly Baby I've ever seen."

And of course, the next year, I had a bad exhaust valve at annual
time... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 04:32:22 GMT, Ron Wanttaja
wrote:

It's kind of funny. I've owned three airplanes in the last twenty
years...and didn't get a pre-buy inspection on any of 'em.

Me too. With the T-cart and the Stinson. Never even got a check-out,
though the gal who sold me the Taylorcraft showed me the right way to
hand-prop her.

Complicated airplanes you can't afford to make a mistake on, it's
probably a different story.

Don

Don Tuite wrote
Complicated airplanes you can't afford to make a mistake on, it's
probably a different story.

If you can't afford to make a mistake, you can't afford the airplane.
Period. These airplanes are old. No prebuy will catch everything
that hasn't broken yet but is about to.

Michael

he's got something to hide... walking away is always the best thing

just tell him flat out.. no.. you are not interested..

there is a plane out there for you.. and an honest seller.. who understands
the issue of a "pre buy"

what was the explanation for the missing two years?

BT

"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found
1
airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
This
last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be true,
seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order
had
2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and do
a
pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic do
your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused to
let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.

He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I wanted
it
or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told him
that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do a
pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre buy
from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P
did
not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not
buy
the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him
talk
to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and
immediately
hung up the phone!

This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your own
eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered
his
phone # in to my call rejection.

Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month.
No
telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.

What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.

Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull****
indicator
was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
should be a simple yes or no answer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------------------

The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a
copy
from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want one?

Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "MRQB"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Do you have a 337 on that repair.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To: "TAC"
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "TAC"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major damage.
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.

This message is from:

Please send all the spec's thank you.

Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?

"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found

I find that attitude in nearly every market anymore. That attitude and the
"convenient" billing error.

It used to be that they'd nickel and dime you; now they $10, $20, $50 you to
death.

In this week alone, my wifes cell phone company (T-Mobile) tried to charge
her for 315 text messages at 15 cents each, even though she never signed up
for it, plus most messages were "sent" while she was at work with the phone
was in her purse, turned off. They said they couldn't figure out how it
happened, so they would not revoke the charge.

Next, I find our car insurance company is trying to charge us for "roadside"
assiatance, though we told them we don't want the service. The were pleasant
about recinding the charge, but I wonder how many just hope non one notices.

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
It used to be that they'd nickel and dime you; now they $10, $20, $50 you to
death.

Obviously, you have never dealt with IBM Global Services.
With them it is $10k-, $20k- and $50K-ing you to death. Even if your
contract states that certain services are included in what you are
already paying, they still find creative ways to tack on extra charges.
Things like higher sales taxes for the neighboring county instead of
your county; taxes on taxes; taxes on things that aren't taxed; charging
taxes on items the contract explicitly says taxes are included. If you
don't have a savy contract manager, they will screw you royally.

I always wondered why businesses that outsourced to them terminated the
contract at the first possible opportunity.

"john smith" wrote in message
...
Tom Sixkiller wrote:
It used to be that they'd nickel and dime you; now they $10, $20, $50
you to
death.

Obviously, you have never dealt with IBM Global Services.

Not on a personal level, no.

With them it is $10k-, $20k- and $50K-ing you to death.

Quite like Microsoft for corporate services; they give you a nice sales
pitch, then tack on "options". At my company we tried SUN, and they did much
the same. We tried HP, and they did it somewhat less so we went with them.

My point, though, was how often companies have billing "errors" (always in
THEIR favor). Evidently _fraud_ is now a way of life for many companies.

His explanation for the missing two years was he did not fly it could not
afford to. The tach times and Hobbs times were consistent with the 2 year
skip after last annual. Prior to the skip it looked like the airplane was
flown like 30 somthing hours then the logs stop. No logs entrys for 2 years
(no pages missing) tach and Hobbs time resume at an annual 2 years later at
arround 30 hours from the last annual with a little list of minor repairs
like nose gear strut seal, breaks, tires ect.



"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:5lz1c.13002$id3.936@fed1read01...
he's got something to hide... walking away is always the best thing

just tell him flat out.. no.. you are not interested..

there is a plane out there for you.. and an honest seller.. who
understands
the issue of a "pre buy"

what was the explanation for the missing two years?

BT

"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I
just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my
self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not
found
1
airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
This
last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be
true,
seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order
had
2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and
do
a
pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic
do
your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused
to
let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.

He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I
wanted
it
or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told
him
that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do
a
pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre
buy
from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P
did
not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not
buy
the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him
talk
to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and
immediately
hung up the phone!

This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your
own
eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered
his
phone # in to my call rejection.

Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month.
No
telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.

What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.

Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull****
indicator
was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
should be a simple yes or no answer.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------------------

The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a
copy
from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want
one?

Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "MRQB"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Do you have a 337 on that repair.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To: "TAC"
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "TAC"
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major
damage.
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.

This message is from:

Please send all the spec's thank you.

Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?

WTF? That's not missing logs! Makes me think there something else to
this story that you're not telling. Was your mechanic a real A&P or
some schmuck that works on his own plane? If that's the case, I'd
tell YOU to pound salt, too!

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 03:08:44 -0800, "MRQB" wrote:

His explanation for the missing two years was he did not fly it could not
afford to. The tach times and Hobbs times were consistent with the 2 year
skip after last annual. Prior to the skip it looked like the airplane was
flown like 30 somthing hours then the logs stop. No logs entrys for 2 years
(no pages missing) tach and Hobbs time resume at an annual 2 years later at
arround 30 hours from the last annual with a little list of minor repairs
like nose gear strut seal, breaks, tires ect.