Talk About A Rude Company,

"Judah" wrote in message
. ..
Have you ever asked your local instructor why he won't take you up in
actual?


They don't want to take a beginning IFR student in actual, ware I am at we
get a lot of IFR days this time a year, they also say the 150's and 172's
are under powered for actual conditions they also say something else about
their insurance. It don't matter anymore I have had 2 flight instructors
contact me from Usenet they sound like reasonable high time freelance
instructors with a lot of free time. I will probably be working with one of
them this winter using my airplane also since it has 2 VOR's, GS, DME, ADF,
Current IFR Pito/Static Test.

In article , Judah wrote:

I could be wrong, but I suspect that most CFIIs prefer to give their IFR
students SOME actual before the training is over. I know several of the
instructors that I have worked with in the past believed strongly that
the sensation of actual is unique for someone who has sat behind foggles
for all of his training, and prefer to be in the right seat the first
time it happens to a student.

I've talked to CFIs who moved to Seattle specifically to get IMC time
for themselves. Of course they'll train in IMC.

OTOH, I'm not sure how eager a CFI would be taking someone up IMC during
the first, oh, 1/3 of the training, where you're just doing basic
attitude flying by instruments.

I remember days early on my IFR training, where we'd file to VFR on top, get
through the cloud layer, do the maneuvers, then shoot an instrument approach
back to base.


Morris

Email them my quals and ask what it will take

I've found that many flight schools are very bad about replying to
email, and likely don't even check it.
If you haven't called these schools yet, I'd suggest you try.
Jill
CP-ASEL

NW_PILOT wrote:

They don't want to take a beginning IFR student in actual

That's actually reasonable, in my experience. At that point, actual would
largely be a waste of your time and money.

Early in your training, you're working on improving your ability to control
the airplane w/o visual reference (and then w/o certain instruments). This
involves a lot of turning and climbing and such. Unless you're somewhere
where your CFI can get you a clearance for a block of airspace, then this
isn't possible in actual.

I'm no CFI, though, so keep a grain of salt with you as you read this.

- Andrew

They don't want to take a beginning IFR student in actual

That's actually reasonable, in my experience. At that point, actual
would
largely be a waste of your time and money.

I've heard that argument before, and I don't agree with it, though I
can easily see why it might sound compelling.

Maneuvers are all well and good, but IMO what a beginning instrument
student needs more than anything is just time controlling the airplane
by instruments - level flight, turns to headings, climbs and descents,
tracking a VOR/ADF/GPS/whatever - the fundamentals of IFR flight.
Sure, he might need a little help on the departure or approach, but
most of the flight he can handle - and it's great training. The reason
I think many instructors are not too comfortable with doing it is
simple - the student WILL bank the plane to 60 degrees. He WILL let
the airspeed decay almost to stall. He WILL mishandle the plane. But
truly, you need to be off heading for a while before you get off
course, and a 1000 ft block altitude is usually not hard to get. As
long as the instructor is comfortable that he can recover from an
unusual attitude (induced by the student) in IMC without drama, or
better yet talk the student through the recovery, it's not a big deal.
Thing is, some instructors are not terribly comfortable with that.

If the goal is to get the student to the checkride in minimum time,
then this isn't the most efficient way to go. In fact, if that's the
goal, doing any training at night and/or in IMC is not recommended.
But if the goal is to train a student capable of using his airplane to
go places in lousy weather (down to mins) day or night, then more and
earlier exposure to IMC is best. I'm a pretty strong advocate of IMC
early and often, and have even had a low time (about 150 hours) private
pilot with no complex or high performance experience flying actual
night IMC on his second IFR lesson - the first in his Bonanza that he
just purchased that day.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
ups.com...
They don't want to take a beginning IFR student in actual

That's actually reasonable, in my experience. At that point, actual
would
largely be a waste of your time and money.

I've heard that argument before, and I don't agree with it, though I
can easily see why it might sound compelling.

Maneuvers are all well and good, but IMO what a beginning instrument
student needs more than anything is just time controlling the airplane
by instruments - level flight, turns to headings, climbs and descents,
tracking a VOR/ADF/GPS/whatever - the fundamentals of IFR flight.
Sure, he might need a little help on the departure or approach, but
most of the flight he can handle - and it's great training. The reason
I think many instructors are not too comfortable with doing it is
simple - the student WILL bank the plane to 60 degrees. He WILL let
the airspeed decay almost to stall. He WILL mishandle the plane. But
truly, you need to be off heading for a while before you get off
course, and a 1000 ft block altitude is usually not hard to get. As
long as the instructor is comfortable that he can recover from an
unusual attitude (induced by the student) in IMC without drama, or
better yet talk the student through the recovery, it's not a big deal.
Thing is, some instructors are not terribly comfortable with that.

If the goal is to get the student to the checkride in minimum time,
then this isn't the most efficient way to go. In fact, if that's the
goal, doing any training at night and/or in IMC is not recommended.
But if the goal is to train a student capable of using his airplane to
go places in lousy weather (down to mins) day or night, then more and
earlier exposure to IMC is best. I'm a pretty strong advocate of IMC
early and often, and have even had a low time (about 150 hours) private
pilot with no complex or high performance experience flying actual
night IMC on his second IFR lesson - the first in his Bonanza that he
just purchased that day.

Michael


My feeling's also I am not trying to get it in the quickest time possible i
just love to fly, I fell if I get exposed to it early on the better I will
know what it feels like. I don't see how any one can do all their training
with a hood and feel save in actual but I have never been so I don't know
what that is like. My 150 costs me very little to operate why use a
simulator when I have the real thing available maybe it will take longer but
I feel I will get more skill actually flying then in a simulator. But all is
taken care of I have found me an instructor that don't mind actual but
prefers it and is ok using my 150 for the training now talk about a savings.

This is what we have planned sounds really fun.

30 to 50 hours in my 150 & about 10 hours in an arrow add the extra systems
to the mix of things (my choice)

I plan on flying 2 to 3 hours per day 4 to 5 times a week.

1 hour ground preflight

1 hour ground post flight.

I would like to fly 3 to 4 hours per day but he said 3 max in 1 day is
enough.

So how Much is 2 Much?

In rec.aviation.owning Michael wrote:
: They don't want to take a beginning IFR student in actual
snip
: I've heard that argument before, and I don't agree with it, though I
: can easily see why it might sound compelling.
snip
: early and often, and have even had a low time (about 150 hours) private
: pilot with no complex or high performance experience flying actual
: night IMC on his second IFR lesson - the first in his Bonanza that he
: just purchased that day.

Michael I totally agree with you. I hired a CFII and picked up my airplane
in Los Angeles as a 75-hour PP. We flew 2 days (almost 25 hours) of actual
instrument time to get the plane back to Mass. This was a most beneficial
experience.
--
Aaron Coolidge

My 150 costs me very little to operate why use a
simulator when I have the real thing available maybe it will take
longer but
I feel I will get more skill actually flying then in a simulator.

Actually, I think you are off base there. There are things you can do
with a sim that you can't really do with the real airplane in terms of
system failures. Only thing is, certified sims (at the light GA level
- I'm not talking about the stuff with visuals and motion) are a waste
of time and money. They are inferior training tools to Microsoft
Flight Sim. No, you can't log the MSFS time (except as ground
instruction) but it's quite valuable - and a copy of MSFS costs less
than an hour in one of those sims.

BTW, I see nothing wrong with using a C-150 for IFR training. It's not
really a practical IFR travel machine, but it does fine if you want to
make hundred mile hops in benign IMC.

As for max 3 in a day - yes, usually, but I've had a student who was
able to handle more. Only one, though.

Michael

Aaron Coolidge wrote:

Michael I totally agree with you. I hired a CFII and picked up my airplane
in Los Angeles as a 75-hour PP. We flew 2 days (almost 25 hours) of actual
instrument time to get the plane back to Mass. This was a most beneficial
experience.

Okay, well, I'll defer to your experience. Most of my non-training IFR
flights have involved a lot of straight and level, with the occasional
maneuver mixed in just to keep me awake. For early training, this seems
like a lot of wasted time. But if you got a lot out of it, then who am I
to argue?

To this I should add that my CFII took an instrument student on an actual
flight that was not as I described above. He flew from CDW to MMU (about 5
miles), flew multiple approaches, and then went back to CDW. I'm
astonished that TRACON accomodated this in IMC, but it does show that
actual flying can be set up to involve little straight and level.

- Andrew

"C J Campbell" wrote in message

Good flight instructors are as picky about their students as good students
are picky of their flight instructors. If a student gives me the creeps,
is
rude, or has an attitude problem, he can take his business elsewhere.

It's a good idea to actually meet a potential customer before you pass
judgements on him.

=c