Cost of ownership question

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:36:08 GMT, Nathan Young
wrote:

If there is a possibility that finances could be tight in the future,
pilots are much better off renting or joining a flying club... That
greatly reduces if not eliminates the risk of having a massive one
time expense, and it also allows a graceful (and no cost) exit if
postponement of flying should be required.

Another benefit of renting/joining a flying club... You would get a
chance to fly several different aircraft types. This would help you
narrow in your choices for purchasing an aircraft.

In my opinion, parking a plane outside is false economy. You save a
little each month, but pay for it in other ways:

See my previous reply to false economy. Many of your examples are valid
points but SoCal is a very expensive place to hanger an aircraft and the
case may not hold up for this local area.

-Plane will continuously need a wash (washing a plane = major time
sink)

ROFL!!! This is California. Many airports won't let you wash your plane.
Water = Runoff = Ecological disaster!

-Worrying every time a storm pulls thru

Up until a few days ago, I would have said this isn't a big issue in San
Diego.

Finally, I believe the Citabria's have fabric wings, which is not a
good choice for a permanent outdoor enviroment.

I have seen Citabrias parked outside around here for years. Fabric holds up
"pretty" well and these are rental planes that are never cleaned or have UV
protectant on them. I would probably clean my plane much more and
definitely apply UV protectant a few times a year.

If there is a possibility that finances could be tight in the future,
pilots are much better off renting or joining a flying club...

There is ALWAYS a chance that finances could be tight in the future. That
is one of the reasons for my 5 year vacation from flying. The new plane
will be a cash purchase with a healthy reserve account for *most* unexpected
events. Very few clubs rent Citabrias. Try to schedule one for a weekend
and they laugh, that is when the rent them for aerobatics instruction.
Scheduling issues just drove me nuts so I decided to quit flying until I
could buy my own. Plus, a few times the aircraft came back with squaks that
weren't logged that I found during preflight. A couple of them made me
cancel the flight for safety...another reason I decided to quit renting
until I could buy.

Slip'er

I want to touch on your point about renting and being grounded.

I started flying early 2003. But before I did, I took a lot of time doing
tons of research on what would be best for me as far as owning or renting.
After I made the decision to rent, I then took an equally intesive search
for where. I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit. The
whole purpose of this was to find the school that had the best aircraft, the
best maintenance program, the best instructors, etc. My thought was I
didn't wanna fly anything substandard and put my welfare in jeopardy. Well,
I finally made a decision on the flight school and have stuck with them ever
since I started close to 2 years ago (2 year anniversary Feb '05).

I guess my point is your woes about renting can be overcome if you do your
diligence and get yourself a great FBO. I have never been grounded for
surprise squaks, they have enough airplanes to handle their full load of
students and regular renters. They have an immaculate maintenance program.
And yes, most of their planes live outside.


"Slip'er" wrote in message
news:8f0Bd.20478$8e5.16655@fed1read07...
In my opinion, parking a plane outside is false economy. You save a
little each month, but pay for it in other ways:

See my previous reply to false economy. Many of your examples are valid
points but SoCal is a very expensive place to hanger an aircraft and the
case may not hold up for this local area.

-Plane will continuously need a wash (washing a plane = major time
sink)

ROFL!!! This is California. Many airports won't let you wash your plane.
Water = Runoff = Ecological disaster!

-Worrying every time a storm pulls thru

Up until a few days ago, I would have said this isn't a big issue in San
Diego.

Finally, I believe the Citabria's have fabric wings, which is not a
good choice for a permanent outdoor enviroment.

I have seen Citabrias parked outside around here for years. Fabric holds
up
"pretty" well and these are rental planes that are never cleaned or have
UV
protectant on them. I would probably clean my plane much more and
definitely apply UV protectant a few times a year.

If there is a possibility that finances could be tight in the future,
pilots are much better off renting or joining a flying club...

There is ALWAYS a chance that finances could be tight in the future. That
is one of the reasons for my 5 year vacation from flying. The new plane
will be a cash purchase with a healthy reserve account for *most*
unexpected
events. Very few clubs rent Citabrias. Try to schedule one for a weekend
and they laugh, that is when the rent them for aerobatics instruction.
Scheduling issues just drove me nuts so I decided to quit flying until I
could buy my own. Plus, a few times the aircraft came back with squaks
that
weren't logged that I found during preflight. A couple of them made me
cancel the flight for safety...another reason I decided to quit renting
until I could buy.

Slip'er

for where. I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit. The
whole purpose of this was to find the school that had the best aircraft, the
best maintenance program, the best instructors, etc. My thought was I
didn't wanna fly anything substandard and put my welfare in jeopardy. Well,
I finally made a decision on the flight school and have stuck with them ever
since I started close to 2 years ago (2 year anniversary Feb '05).

I live in the bay area, and I'm did a similar search. I curious, which
flying club did you settle on?

I live in Hayward, and chose California Airways at KHWD.

I visited all of the FBOs withing a two hour drive of me, I live
in Northern Cal, Bay Area, so that is a lot of flight schools to visit.

Wow, that's serious research. My limit is about a 1 hour drive which gives
me 5 airports only 3 of which have FBOs. One of the big problems that I
have is that I am 99% interested in renting Citabrias / Decathalons and
about 1% interested in everything else. Very few clubs have taildraggers
and those that do usually only have 1 or 2 on the flight line. This isn't a
big pool for the aerobatic / tailwheel students. As such, scheduling is
always cumbersome especially for all-day or multi-day rentals.

Slip'er

I chose a tail dragging Maule:
- choosing a 4 seater over a 2 seater was the best decision. 95% of the
time, it is 2 of us flying for a 1 to 5 day trip of aprox 250miles
roundtrip. A 2 placer is good for 1 person traveling. 2 people require
a 4 placer.
- Simple has paid off in reasonably predictable and moderate
maintenance; no CS prop, 180 4 cyl, relatively new
- Hangaring; I would not be willing to own something that sat out. Not
after being in a hangar.
- I love the tailwheel - keeps it interesting and different. Makes me
feel good. No practical value whatsoever.
- Wish it was faster. But having flown only 60 hours this year vs 125
to 150 the past 5 - I appreciate the simplicity and low maintenance.

I'd suggest some more exploring of clubs or partnerships

Slip'er wrote:
All great feedback so far. Keep it coming. I have made a few posts about
my efforts to select a plane. I am definitely caught in analysis paralysis.
I am also caught up with fear of selling my stock when it is doing so well.
I sold 500 shares to buy Christmas presents, two weeks after I sold them
those 500 shares were worth an additional $3500. I know this matters little
in the big scheme, you can't time the market...etc. But I'm still planning
to hold out until the fall and review my plans. Back to the plane.

I have only flown Citabrias and Decathalons with a little bit of Piper
PA-140 / PA-180 and a PT-23. I love the Citabria/Decathalon but am luke
warm at best about the Archer/172/etc. This bird will be parked outside,
most likely.

I started my quest thinking that a Champ or a Luscombe would fit the bill
for a first plane. But I get caught up in the "a 7ECA isn't that much more
and I get aerobatics and a bigger engine" which is true but, " a 150hp
Citabria isn't much more and I love the extra power" and "wow there are a
few nice examples of 8KCABs out there with a CS prop which is nice for
aerobatics and cruise, AND they don't cost much more..." So this is my main
dilema aside from purchase price, what is the difference in relative
maintenance from each of this family when comparing models of similar
condition. They typically don't have a lot of "extras" which is fine for
me. I am VFR only and don't plan to get instrument rated. (although I have
done and will continue to do a bit of training in my friends plane for a
margin of safety should I need it someday) If I buy into this group I'd
really like to get the metal spar and heavy lift struts.

Then more skitzophrenai...Should I really hold fast to taildraggers and
stick? Yes! I dream about bush flying all of the time and with my own
plane, 3-4 day weekend trips will actually be possible. (ever try to rent a
Citabria for a 3 day weekend? Good luck!) Wait, if I go for a faster
plane, I have access to more places. If I had say a Long-Eze or other
slippery plane in my price range I could really explore America.

Wait, I have kids. How often will I be able to realistically take off for
3-4 day trips. That probably isn't a good selection criteria. Best to
stick with day trips, again though speed is distance. Hmm, I love the
tandem seating but, my kids would really like to be up front and that would
be nice for them to learn more and enjoy each others company.

OMG, Look at that Great Lakes! No, wait, later! Wait until the kids are in
College. That cannot be a good idea right now.

So, I really think I'll be looking at a Citabria type aircraft. It seems
to be where my "comfort" zone is, probably because I soloed in a 7ECA and
most of my time is in Citabrias. The question is, should I buy the absolute
minimum aircraft that meets my "needs" or buy what I can afford for maximum
fun? One thing is true with Motorcycles, Cars, Boats, and Airplanes....you
can never have too much horse power.

Part of me says buy the minimum plane ie 7ECA for two reasons. Put the
minimum money at risk and use this first purchase as a learning experience.
This will increase reserves in case I really screw up and said reserves can
also hide some of the real expense from my wife who supports me in this but
is also an accountant...and I hear about my excessive hobbies. But if say a
150 HP Citabria is about the same to maintain...why not spend a little extra
money?

When I really think about it, this wouldn't be such a difficult decision if
I were single. The real pain I feel is that buying a plane feels so
selfish! This is a huge, expensive hobby for ME. Yes, my kids will enjoy
it but I doubt my wife will fly with me until the kids are out of the house.
My kids have flown with me and enjoy it but truth be told...they'd rather
have a boat (my wife would too). Which clearly means...this is for me. But
darn it, I have wanted this all of my life. They just "want" a boat because
I brought it up one day when I took them sailing on a friends 28 ft
sailboat.

Time for my medication...

You succeeded in getting me looking at Maule's. A 160 or 180 might be the
best compromise for me although I will surely miss having a stick.

Slip'er

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
om...
I chose a tail dragging Maule:
- choosing a 4 seater over a 2 seater was the best decision. 95% of the
time, it is 2 of us flying for a 1 to 5 day trip of aprox 250miles
roundtrip. A 2 placer is good for 1 person traveling. 2 people require
a 4 placer.
- Simple has paid off in reasonably predictable and moderate
maintenance; no CS prop, 180 4 cyl, relatively new
- Hangaring; I would not be willing to own something that sat out. Not
after being in a hangar.
- I love the tailwheel - keeps it interesting and different. Makes me
feel good. No practical value whatsoever.
- Wish it was faster. But having flown only 60 hours this year vs 125
to 150 the past 5 - I appreciate the simplicity and low maintenance.

I'd suggest some more exploring of clubs or partnerships

Slip'er wrote:
All great feedback so far. Keep it coming. I have made a few posts
about
my efforts to select a plane. I am definitely caught in analysis
paralysis.
I am also caught up with fear of selling my stock when it is doing so
well.
I sold 500 shares to buy Christmas presents, two weeks after I sold them
those 500 shares were worth an additional $3500. I know this matters
little
in the big scheme, you can't time the market...etc. But I'm still
planning
to hold out until the fall and review my plans. Back to the plane.

I have only flown Citabrias and Decathalons with a little bit of Piper
PA-140 / PA-180 and a PT-23. I love the Citabria/Decathalon but am luke
warm at best about the Archer/172/etc. This bird will be parked
outside,
most likely.

I started my quest thinking that a Champ or a Luscombe would fit the
bill
for a first plane. But I get caught up in the "a 7ECA isn't that much
more
and I get aerobatics and a bigger engine" which is true but, " a 150hp
Citabria isn't much more and I love the extra power" and "wow there are
a
few nice examples of 8KCABs out there with a CS prop which is nice for
aerobatics and cruise, AND they don't cost much more..." So this is my
main
dilema aside from purchase price, what is the difference in relative
maintenance from each of this family when comparing models of similar
condition. They typically don't have a lot of "extras" which is fine
for
me. I am VFR only and don't plan to get instrument rated. (although I
have
done and will continue to do a bit of training in my friends plane for a
margin of safety should I need it someday) If I buy into this group I'd
really like to get the metal spar and heavy lift struts.

Then more skitzophrenai...Should I really hold fast to taildraggers and
stick? Yes! I dream about bush flying all of the time and with my own
plane, 3-4 day weekend trips will actually be possible. (ever try to
rent a
Citabria for a 3 day weekend? Good luck!) Wait, if I go for a faster
plane, I have access to more places. If I had say a Long-Eze or other
slippery plane in my price range I could really explore America.

Wait, I have kids. How often will I be able to realistically take off
for
3-4 day trips. That probably isn't a good selection criteria. Best to
stick with day trips, again though speed is distance. Hmm, I love the
tandem seating but, my kids would really like to be up front and that
would
be nice for them to learn more and enjoy each others company.

OMG, Look at that Great Lakes! No, wait, later! Wait until the kids
are in
College. That cannot be a good idea right now.

So, I really think I'll be looking at a Citabria type aircraft. It
seems
to be where my "comfort" zone is, probably because I soloed in a 7ECA
and
most of my time is in Citabrias. The question is, should I buy the
absolute
minimum aircraft that meets my "needs" or buy what I can afford for
maximum
fun? One thing is true with Motorcycles, Cars, Boats, and
Airplanes....you
can never have too much horse power.

Part of me says buy the minimum plane ie 7ECA for two reasons. Put the
minimum money at risk and use this first purchase as a learning
experience.
This will increase reserves in case I really screw up and said reserves
can
also hide some of the real expense from my wife who supports me in this
but
is also an accountant...and I hear about my excessive hobbies. But if
say a
150 HP Citabria is about the same to maintain...why not spend a little
extra
money?

When I really think about it, this wouldn't be such a difficult decision
if
I were single. The real pain I feel is that buying a plane feels so
selfish! This is a huge, expensive hobby for ME. Yes, my kids will
enjoy
it but I doubt my wife will fly with me until the kids are out of the
house.
My kids have flown with me and enjoy it but truth be told...they'd
rather
have a boat (my wife would too). Which clearly means...this is for me.
But
darn it, I have wanted this all of my life. They just "want" a boat
because
I brought it up one day when I took them sailing on a friends 28 ft
sailboat.

Time for my medication...

Slip'er wrote:

You succeeded in getting me looking at Maule's. A 160 or 180 might be the
best compromise for me although I will surely miss having a stick.

My 160 is for sale if you get a little futher than just looking.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

I don't want to bother you just tire kicking but contact me off line and let
me know the particulars or a link if you have anything posted on the web.

carl dot hixon at cox dot net

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble
enterprise.