FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:28:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
The fun, ease and simpleness of IGC WILL attract more pilots.

Specifics, please. I haven't studied the IGC rules, and neither have most American pilots. What are the essential differences that are going to make this class a winner?

So far, I think I've got:

1. No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low performance gliders when task setting.

2. No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.

3. No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.

4. Much more emphasis on ATs.

5. Score everything according to FAI rules.

What did I miss?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

So far, I think I've got:

1. *No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low performance gliders when task setting.

2. *No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.

Actually, under IGC rules, each contest gets to make its own list,
depending on the gliders available. So "use IGC rules" and "further
restrict the US club class list to the list used in Argentina" are
separate requests.


3. *No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.

Actually, you can put in speed limits and altitude limits.

What you can't do is the US 2 minute under altitude limits, the US
start out the top, the US credit for distance rules or our cylinders
It has to be a line.

So, with altitude limits you get VNE dives to the line. Sometimes out
of the clouds. People have given up on speed limits, because you can't
tell in the cockpit what the speed will read out on see you later. At
Uvalde after days of harangue they gave up and used unlmited altitude,
which meant half the field started in wave on a few days. At Szeged
most of the gaggle circled around in the cloud before the unlimited
altitude start. Fun stuff. Advocates have a point, if you want to go
do this stuff at the worlds, practicing at home will help a lot.


4. *Much more emphasis on ATs.

A rule mandating the fraction of AT and TAT. Uvalde sent them off in
to thunderstorms on ATs because they didn't want to use up the
mandated fraction of TAT which they might need on even worse days to
come. An interesting unintended conseqence of putting in a mandated
fraction of task types.


5. *Score everything according to FAI rules.

Which feature a much more aggressive transition from speed to distance
points than US rules. If nobody makes it home, it's 1000 distance
points. Under FAI rules you make almost no points if you're the only
finisher, as it's all become distance points. You get clobbered if
you're the only landout. This is one of the big reasons that FAI rules
lead to long start gate roulette, leaving when it's hopeless, then
mass gaggles to a huge landout.

The tactical implications of the FAI scoring formula are subtle and
deep. There are several analyses of the required strategies floating
around the US team. If we go there, be prepared to play a very
different tactical game.

Advocates have a point: if you want to learn to play this game it
takes years of practice. The question for US pilots: do the 99% of you
who are not going to the worlds really want to invest a lot to
learning to play these games? You're going to be landing out a lot
more often btw.


John Cochrane

So, with altitude limits you get VNE dives to the line. Sometimes out
of the clouds. Fun stuff. Advocates have a point, if you want to go
do this stuff at the worlds, practicing at home will help a lot.

8.7 LIST OF APPROVED PENALTIES, page 34
Cloud flying: 100pts first offense, day disqual - second offense, Disqualification - max penalty.

The tactical implications of the FAI scoring formula are subtle and
deep. There are several analyses of the required strategies floating
around the US team. If we go there, be prepared to play a very
different tactical game.
The question for US pilots: do the 99% of you
who are not going to the worlds really want to invest a lot to
learning to play these games? You're going to be landing out a lot
more often btw.

John Cochrane

Keep in mind we are not proposing changing existing US Classes. We are hoping to create a new racing class and positive experience NOT available in the US. It is ONE class. Give US pilots a choice. Seeing how the petition is developing, it's clear a strong voice is growing.

I think the picture painted above about IGC rules is a bit DRAMATIC. I certainly didn't experience that in Prievidza 2010 WGC. I think safety and successful tasking varies according to contest management. That is no different in the US.

Advocates have a point: if you want to learn to play this game it
takes years of practice. The question for US pilots: do the 99% of you
who are not going to the worlds really want to invest a lot to
learning to play these games?

Interesting comment. Besides a refreshing alternative do you think this new class could serve as training for US Team pilots?

Sean Franke

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 6:08:34 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:

5. *Score everything according to FAI rules.



Which feature a much more aggressive transition from speed to distance

points than US rules. If nobody makes it home, it's 1000 distance

points. Under FAI rules you make almost no points if you're the only

finisher, as it's all become distance points. You get clobbered if

you're the only landout. This is one of the big reasons that FAI rules

lead to long start gate roulette, leaving when it's hopeless, then

mass gaggles to a huge landout.



The tactical implications of the FAI scoring formula are subtle and

deep. There are several analyses of the required strategies floating

around the US team. If we go there, be prepared to play a very

different tactical game.



Advocates have a point: if you want to learn to play this game it

takes years of practice. The question for US pilots: do the 99% of you

who are not going to the worlds really want to invest a lot to

learning to play these games? You're going to be landing out a lot

more often btw.


Points to ponder. Anyone else who has flown FAI rules want to weigh in?

Evan Ludeman / T8

I encourage you to review the rules. IGC is LESS complex,simpler and easier to understand. IGC rules are 15,091 words long compared to 25,804 (US rules).

http://www.fai.org/igc-documents

Go to Sporting Code Section 3 Annex A

1. No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low performance gliders when task setting.
YES

2. No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.
No LS-6 or Venti. ASW-20B&Cs HAVE BEEN allowed. They are specifically excluded in Argentina at the next WGC.

3. No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.
Altitude limits are up to CD discretion, similar to US Rules.

4. Much more emphasis on ATs.
YES. There are ONLY Racing Tasks (AT) and Assigned Area Tasks. 50/50 seems to be the philosophy.

5. Score everything according to FAI rules.
YES. See scoring calculations on page 31 & 32 of FAI SC3a rules.

Sean Franke

Let's not forget what I consider the most unfair IGC CC rule of
all- no actual weight based handicapping. So if I fly a Discus b at
825 pounds and BB flies a Discus a at 700 pounds, we fly with
the same handicap. I would have a one pound PSF wing loading
advantage, which would be helpful anywhere but the maybe the
UK.
Big, heavy guys take note. I weigh 100 kg. BB considerably
less.

Richard Walters

At 23:13 27 November 2012, wrote:
I encourage you to review the rules. IGC is LESS
complex,simpler and
easier to understand. IGC rules are 15,091 words long
compared to 25,804
(US rules).

http://www.fai.org/igc-documents

Go to Sporting Code Section 3 Annex A

1. No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low
performance
gliders when task setting.
YES

2. No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.
No LS-6 or Venti. ASW-20B&Cs HAVE BEEN allowed. They are
specifically
excluded in Argentina at the next WGC.

3. No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.
Altitude limits are up to CD discretion, similar to US Rules.

4. Much more emphasis on ATs.
YES. There are ONLY Racing Tasks (AT) and Assigned Area
Tasks. 50/50
seems to be the philosophy.

5. Score everything according to FAI rules.
YES. See scoring calculations on page 31 & 32 of FAI SC3a
rules.

Sean Franke

Let's not forget what I consider the most unfair IGC CC rule of
all- no actual weight based handicapping. So if I fly a Discus b at
825 pounds and BB flies a Discus a at 700 pounds, we fly with
the same handicap. I would have a one pound PSF wing loading
advantage, which would be helpful anywhere but the maybe the
UK.
Big, heavy guys take note. I weigh 100 kg. BB considerably
less.

Richard Walters

At 23:13 27 November 2012, wrote:
I encourage you to review the rules. IGC is LESS
complex,simpler and
easier to understand. IGC rules are 15,091 words long
compared to 25,804
(US rules).

http://www.fai.org/igc-documents

Go to Sporting Code Section 3 Annex A

1. No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low
performance
gliders when task setting.
YES

2. No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.
No LS-6 or Venti. ASW-20B&Cs HAVE BEEN allowed. They are
specifically
excluded in Argentina at the next WGC.

3. No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.
Altitude limits are up to CD discretion, similar to US Rules.

4. Much more emphasis on ATs.
YES. There are ONLY Racing Tasks (AT) and Assigned Area
Tasks. 50/50
seems to be the philosophy.

5. Score everything according to FAI rules.
YES. See scoring calculations on page 31 & 32 of FAI SC3a
rules.

Sean Franke

Let's not forget what I consider the most unfair IGC CC rule of
all- no actual weight based handicapping. So if I fly a Discus b at
825 pounds and BB flies a Discus a at 700 pounds, we fly with
the same handicap. I would have a one pound PSF wing loading
advantage, which would be helpful anywhere but the maybe the
UK.
Big, heavy guys take note. I weigh 100 kg. BB considerably
less.

Richard Walters

At 23:13 27 November 2012, wrote:
I encourage you to review the rules. IGC is LESS
complex,simpler and
easier to understand. IGC rules are 15,091 words long
compared to 25,804
(US rules).

http://www.fai.org/igc-documents

Go to Sporting Code Section 3 Annex A

1. No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low
performance
gliders when task setting.
YES

2. No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.
No LS-6 or Venti. ASW-20B&Cs HAVE BEEN allowed. They are
specifically
excluded in Argentina at the next WGC.

3. No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.
Altitude limits are up to CD discretion, similar to US Rules.

4. Much more emphasis on ATs.
YES. There are ONLY Racing Tasks (AT) and Assigned Area
Tasks. 50/50
seems to be the philosophy.

5. Score everything according to FAI rules.
YES. See scoring calculations on page 31 & 32 of FAI SC3a
rules.

Sean Franke

Let's not forget what I consider the most unfair IGC CC rule of
all- no actual weight based handicapping. So if I fly a Discus b at
825 pounds and BB flies a Discus a at 700 pounds, we fly with
the same handicap. I would have a one pound PSF wing loading
advantage, which would be helpful anywhere but the maybe the
UK.
Big, heavy guys take note. I weigh 100 kg. BB considerably
less.

Richard Walters

At 23:13 27 November 2012, wrote:
I encourage you to review the rules. IGC is LESS
complex,simpler and
easier to understand. IGC rules are 15,091 words long
compared to 25,804
(US rules).

http://www.fai.org/igc-documents

Go to Sporting Code Section 3 Annex A

1. No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low
performance
gliders when task setting.
YES

2. No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.
No LS-6 or Venti. ASW-20B&Cs HAVE BEEN allowed. They are
specifically
excluded in Argentina at the next WGC.

3. No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.
Altitude limits are up to CD discretion, similar to US Rules.

4. Much more emphasis on ATs.
YES. There are ONLY Racing Tasks (AT) and Assigned Area
Tasks. 50/50
seems to be the philosophy.

5. Score everything according to FAI rules.
YES. See scoring calculations on page 31 & 32 of FAI SC3a
rules.

Sean Franke

Let's not forget what I consider the most unfair IGC CC rule of
all- no actual weight based handicapping. So if I fly a Discus b at
825 pounds and BB flies a Discus a at 700 pounds, we fly with
the same handicap. I would have a one pound PSF wing loading
advantage, which would be helpful anywhere but the maybe the
UK.
Big, heavy guys take note. I weigh 100 kg. BB considerably
less.

Richard Walters

At 23:13 27 November 2012, wrote:
I encourage you to review the rules. IGC is LESS
complex,simpler and
easier to understand. IGC rules are 15,091 words long
compared to 25,804
(US rules).

http://www.fai.org/igc-documents

Go to Sporting Code Section 3 Annex A

1. No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low
performance
gliders when task setting.
YES

2. No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.
No LS-6 or Venti. ASW-20B&Cs HAVE BEEN allowed. They are
specifically
excluded in Argentina at the next WGC.

3. No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.
Altitude limits are up to CD discretion, similar to US Rules.

4. Much more emphasis on ATs.
YES. There are ONLY Racing Tasks (AT) and Assigned Area
Tasks. 50/50
seems to be the philosophy.

5. Score everything according to FAI rules.
YES. See scoring calculations on page 31 & 32 of FAI SC3a
rules.

Sean Franke