U.S. glider operations fuel prices

On Monday, November 26, 2012 10:08:24 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:49:47 PM UTC-6, Bill D wrote:



Presumably, the glider pilot also pays dues so that's a wash. He also pays for the aero tow which you don't. You should split the tow fee with him since your 'hobby' is flying Pawnees.



No, my "hobby" is flying gliders. I "enjoy" flying towplanes. By your logic, an airline pilot who enjoys flying his 777 should pay his passengers for giving him a job. -snip-

Yep, the oldest game in aviation - free flying.

On Monday, November 26, 2012 11:34:02 AM UTC-6, Bill D wrote:

Yep, the oldest game in aviation - free flying.

Free flying is the quintessential oxymoron.

Kirk
66

Originally Posted by Karen

On Nov 22, 7:33*am, Bill D wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:31:23 AM UTC-7, Karen wrote:
On Nov 20, 2:25*pm, aerodyne wrote:

That's direct fuel cost. *The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.

OK - so the Pawnee D does not have the STC - what about all the

earlier models made 20 years or so prior? *The bulk of the fleet I'd

wager.

Insurance, maintenance, and hanger rent driven proportionaly by fuel

cost? *I doubt that. *Show me the numbers!

Re Numbers:

Yesterday in NV, mom & pop commercial FBO. One of ths launches in 15kt

wind to 1,900 ft agl, ASK21, two pilots, one winch driver, (busy

grandmother of 12), one $10,000 winch, 28 ounces of premium gas equals

$1 fuel costs. (And who needs a wing runner on a paved runway?) Get

with *the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the

1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport.

Karen Henderson.

Please, Karen take care with wing down takeoffs. *Yes it can 'work' but the safety margins are tiny. *If the slightest drag develops on the down wing, the opposite wing will accelerate leading to a very ugly ground loop or worse. *A CG hook won't keep the glider straight like a nose hook. *You're literally playing Russian Roulette - people have died.

Good point. US Postmaster here with a day off, so have time today to
surf & read and post. When we read the paper Bill D sent us re
accelerated roll rates starting with a wing down, we modified
procedures not to launch w/o runner in any cross-wind situation. More
the guys invented a device to hold the tail of a taildragger down so
it wouldn't slam down during takeoff. No the geniuses are trying to
come up with some kind of fall away stand for one wing in the absence
of a runner. Problem so far is, it falls away in a crosswind before
slack is even taken up.Two wing stands, one on each wing, was deemed
not safe. We also do a slow 1-2-3 start to raise a wing since reading
your research. Thank you. Karen

At my club in NZ I've used my wing wheel upside down and secured to the ground with a weight to rest the wing on for a no runner winch launch in my Ventus a. The wing rolls of the wheel real nice. To make sure the wing stays in place before the launch commences I/we use a lightly weighted cushion on top of the wing towards the trailing edge. It gets left behind just fine on the all out call

:-) Colin

Now I'm chuckling. Ya done good!

BTW, my towing pays for my glider insurance, hangar, and tows for the year.
My wife says I'm "living the dream", and it's true!


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Monday, November 26, 2012 9:55:56 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Bill, you're -snip- just messing with us tow pilots.

Of course I am.

In article "Dan Marotta" writes:

Bill, you're missing the point or just messing with us tow pilots. Flying
the Pawnee is not my hobby, it's my contribution to the sport. Some people
mow the grass, some clean the club house, some instruct, some fly the tug.
I'd rather fly the tug than drive the winch since I get the "view from
above" and the challenge of landing the Pawnee in a 15 kt cross wind. On
the other hand, it's a lot easier to climb in/out of a winch, and you don't
get the excitement of having your nose pointed at the ground by some
ham-fisted wannabe.

As an aside, I once considered towing, since I found out that it can be
done with a private license, but was seriously put off when I read of some
of the bad things that can happen -- such as a glider pulling ones tail up
at a low altitude.

Having read about that, I have become more sensitive to what I am doing
at the back end of the rope, but also a lot less willing to fly a towplane.

I would love to read more of your thoughts as an experienced/active tow
pilot of these risks.

Alan

On Monday, November 26, 2012 11:23:00 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

As an aside, I once considered towing, since I found out that it can be

done with a private license, but was seriously put off when I read of some

of the bad things that can happen -- such as a glider pulling ones tail up

at a low altitude.



Having read about that, I have become more sensitive to what I am doing

at the back end of the rope, but also a lot less willing to fly a towplane.



I would love to read more of your thoughts as an experienced/active tow

pilot of these risks.



Alan

The following is based on an in-depth study of NTSB reports for the last 10 years (2001 - 2011)looking at accidents directly involving aero towing gliders. This is for 130,000 - 140,000 tows per year.

49 NTSB reports.
14 tow pilot fatalities.
13 glider pilot fatalities.
21 serious injuries.

OTOH, Germany's ~900 clubs did between 800,000 and 1,000,000 winch launches last year for just 5 accidents with 3 fatalities. Reference: DAeC and BFU, Germany's SSA and NTSB equivalents respectively.

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:30:04 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.



High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.

Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to

keep the sport affordable



Locally here in Ca we currently pay $5.60 per gal 100LL and there is an

airport 20 miles away charging $5.21 per gal. An online search of current

fuel prices shows that throughout the six continental U.S. regions the

average price per gal 100LL is between $5.43 and $5.76. Is anyone aware of

any U.S. fixed glider operations paying $13 per gallon, or for that matter

any fixed operations that are paying in excess of $7?



The Germans did not have tow planes when they were allowed to fly again after WWII. They needed to use winches to fly. So they found the infrastructures for them. The Doernberg in Germany works great with winches but the terrain is not good for tow planes. I operated a Com operation for decades with 2 Tugs, have thousands of hours in them, always preferred to fly the glider. Not much is mentioned about maintenance,insurance, not so good tow pilots?

THE FUTURE IS SELF LAUNCH AND WINCHING IMHO AND THERE MAY HAVE TO BE IDEAL VENUES found FOR THEM!

For training, winching is best and one may have to go out to the prairie. Self launching can be done at busy airports. Sometimes I am cleared for take off behind two jets. The Germans are/were using their teenagers for Winch and retrieve work. They especially love to drive the retrieve car, since they are not allowed to drive yet on the road etc etc. But those customs may end?
Diesel winches...Boutique gas? Self Launch gliders? A lot of changes are comming! Most of us in the US do not even know what a good winch looks like.
There are so many contrasts. Europeans now fly in Namibia with Dozens of Self launchers, and some of their buddies are waiting for spring up north so they
can make their 10 flights a year off winches that may not last more than 15 minutes each!

Dieter
Gliders Of Aspen Inc.

On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:25:03 AM UTC-7, Dieter B wrote:
On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:30:04 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:

I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.







High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.



Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to



keep the sport affordable







Locally here in Ca we currently pay $5.60 per gal 100LL and there is an



airport 20 miles away charging $5.21 per gal. An online search of current



fuel prices shows that throughout the six continental U.S. regions the



average price per gal 100LL is between $5.43 and $5.76. Is anyone aware of



any U.S. fixed glider operations paying $13 per gallon, or for that matter



any fixed operations that are paying in excess of $7?







The Germans did not have tow planes when they were allowed to fly again after WWII. They needed to use winches to fly. So they found the infrastructures for them. The Doernberg in Germany works great with winches but the terrain is not good for tow planes. I operated a Com operation for decades with 2 Tugs, have thousands of hours in them, always preferred to fly the glider. Not much is mentioned about maintenance,insurance, not so good tow pilots?



THE FUTURE IS SELF LAUNCH AND WINCHING IMHO AND THERE MAY HAVE TO BE IDEAL VENUES found FOR THEM!



For training, winching is best and one may have to go out to the prairie. Self launching can be done at busy airports. Sometimes I am cleared for take off behind two jets. The Germans are/were using their teenagers for Winch and retrieve work. They especially love to drive the retrieve car, since they are not allowed to drive yet on the road etc etc. But those customs may end?

Diesel winches...Boutique gas? Self Launch gliders? A lot of changes are comming! Most of us in the US do not even know what a good winch looks like..

There are so many contrasts. Europeans now fly in Namibia with Dozens of Self launchers, and some of their buddies are waiting for spring up north so they

can make their 10 flights a year off winches that may not last more than 15 minutes each!



Dieter

Gliders Of Aspen Inc.

Dieter, you're right as usual. However, I think the self-launch community and the winch launch community will go different directions. Self-launcher's will tend to operate as individuals outside of clubs and commercial operations much as airplane owners do while winches will pull club membership closer together as they increasingly depend on each other.

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:10:19 -0800, Bill D wrote:

The key to keeping winch launch as cheap as possible is to make sure
everything possible has been done to prevent the winch from damaging the
rope. An old-style crossed roller fairlead absolutely murders rope.
The other is not to use a monster SUV to pull out the rope since they
can easily burn a tank of gas a day.

FWIW my club uses 4WD diesel Hilux pickup trucks to fetch cables from a
two cable winch. I know this may be a no-no on CA, but they're great
elsewhere. We have a grass field on heavy clay soil, so it doesn't drain
well ans is in the UK, so is often damp.

In dry conditions the Hiluxes do a good job on 2WD and normal tyres.
In winter we fit double wide tyres and tow in 4WD. If conditions are
really wet we use wide tyres, 4WD and only one cable.

Our usual run is 1360m (4460ft) and gives launches to 1200-2000 ft
depending on conditions.

I have never known a Hilux to use more than a fraction of a tank during a
full day's operations. On a busy summer day, 100 launches is not unknown,
though 40-50 is more usual.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Friday, November 30, 2012 5:55:43 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:10:19 -0800, Bill D wrote:



The key to keeping winch launch as cheap as possible is to make sure

everything possible has been done to prevent the winch from damaging the

rope. An old-style crossed roller fairlead absolutely murders rope.

The other is not to use a monster SUV to pull out the rope since they

can easily burn a tank of gas a day.



FWIW my club uses 4WD diesel Hilux pickup trucks to fetch cables from a

two cable winch. I know this may be a no-no on CA, but they're great

elsewhere. We have a grass field on heavy clay soil, so it doesn't drain

well ans is in the UK, so is often damp.



In dry conditions the Hiluxes do a good job on 2WD and normal tyres.

In winter we fit double wide tyres and tow in 4WD. If conditions are

really wet we use wide tyres, 4WD and only one cable.



Our usual run is 1360m (4460ft) and gives launches to 1200-2000 ft

depending on conditions.



I have never known a Hilux to use more than a fraction of a tank during a

full day's operations. On a busy summer day, 100 launches is not unknown,

though 40-50 is more usual.





--

martin@ | Martin Gregorie

gregorie. | Essex, UK

org |

Big retrieve vehicles are a legacy of steel cable winches. With Dyneema, I've seen a wing runner grab the rope and pull another 15 feet off the winch which was a mile away. Dyneema is so light and slippery a 125cc ATV is more than enough retrieve vehicle. I'm sure it could pull 4 ropes on wet grass.