Switching to ground....

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

As I wrote in my first post: At this particular airport, this particular
taxyway is managed by Tower. This is an exception. This is
mentioned in the AIP, and pilots are expected to read the aiport
chart and before using an airport.


But Tower issued an instruction to taxi to a point beyond that particular
taxiway. Tower authorized an operation in an area beyond it's
responsibility or authority. Tower erred.



You got it.


That is inherently unsafe.



Yes, it's perfectly safe (as safe as something can be, of course).


No, it's not at all safe. You're relying on pilots to understand that an
instruction does not mean what it says. Anyone that believes that does not
understand what safety is. Instructions should mean what they say, that's
fundamental to safety.



Pilots are required to know the rules. Just because rules are
different to those you are used to doesn't mean they are not
safe. Nothing strange about this rule when you are used to it.


The rules are not safe where two aircraft can adhere literally to their
separate instructions and occupy the same point at the same time. Based on
your messages, that is the case in Germany. It then follows that German
procedures are not as safe as they could be. Safety would be increased if
Germany adopted US procedures.

Jeremy Lew wrote:
I have done the exit at Golf and switch thing several times (the last being
only a few days ago). Clearly, you need to get off the runway if there's
someone landing and the tower has forgotten about you. I might wait somewhat
longer at an unfamiliar airport before switching (or use COM2, like other
people have said), but we all know the drill at BED, I don't see it as a
safety issue at all, and have never had a controller bat an eyelash.

Jeremy

Jeremy --

The "get off the runawy" part is clear -- even without the tower
saying "turn left at Golf", you are supposed to turn off at the
first taxiway that is practical -- and I've often exited the
runway before they told me to. I've also had the experience
in the past where they had likely forgotten that they had
failed to switch me to ground, but usually the frequency
is clear and I can just tell the tower that I am on Golf
and want to taxi -- occasionally when I do this I get surprised
in that the tower really does want me to stay with them during
the taxi. What made this situation unusual was that they had
forgotten me and I couldn't get a word in....

David

--
David Rind

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

The rules are not safe where two aircraft can adhere literally to their
separate instructions and occupy the same point at the same time.

A taxi instruction is never a clearance to enter a runway, I don't see
what's so difficult about that.

But I'm ready to admit that you're right and I'm wrong. And I was wrong
when I stated in my first post, where all this began, that it can be a
safety issue when one leaves the tower frequency without the tower's
kowledge, too.

If it makes you feel good, continue to change frequencies at your
discretion without telling anybody and if sometimes you'll happen to fly
abroad, ignore local rules when they don't please you. Just please tell
me beforehand, so I can avoid that airspace.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

A taxi instruction is never a clearance to enter a runway, I don't see
what's so difficult about that.


It is in the US, and thus for most operators.



But I'm ready to admit that you're right and I'm wrong. And I was wrong
when I stated in my first post, where all this began, that it can be a
safety issue when one leaves the tower frequency without the tower's
kowledge, too.

If it makes you feel good, continue to change frequencies at your
discretion without telling anybody and if sometimes you'll happen to fly
abroad, ignore local rules when they don't please you. Just please tell
me beforehand, so I can avoid that airspace.


What have you against sharing airspace with a safety-minded pilot?

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

The point is that taxiways are managed by Ground but runways
by Tower.

Generally, yes. But not always.

Stefan wrote:


A taxi instruction is never a clearance to enter a runway, I don't see
what's so difficult about that.

It routinely is. You can cross all runways on the way to your assigned
runway. Those runways may or may not be in use.

"David Rind" wrote in message
...
I landed at BED a couple of days ago, and as I was rolling out
the controllers switched, so I never got the usual instruction
to "turn off at Golf, ground .7". Since Golf was the first
taxiway to turn off on anyway, I made the turn off.
snip
I'm wondering if anyone disagrees and thinks the right thing to
do was what I actually did -- stay with the Tower until I could
get permission to change to Ground.
snip
--

David, in your own post, you state that the tower DID tell you to contact
ground. In the first paragraph, "turn left at Golf, ground .7".. most towers
will shorten the statement as BED did, "most" ground controls are always
121.x.. so the ".7" is 121.7

BT

BTIZ wrote:
"David Rind" wrote in message
...

I landed at BED a couple of days ago, and as I was rolling out
the controllers switched, so I never got the usual instruction
to "turn off at Golf, ground .7". Since Golf was the first
taxiway to turn off on anyway, I made the turn off.

snip

I'm wondering if anyone disagrees and thinks the right thing to
do was what I actually did -- stay with the Tower until I could
get permission to change to Ground.

snip

--


David, in your own post, you state that the tower DID tell you to contact
ground. In the first paragraph, "turn left at Golf, ground .7".. most towers
will shorten the statement as BED did, "most" ground controls are always
121.x.. so the ".7" is 121.7

BT

Sorry to take up bandwith with this, but please look at that
first paragraph of mine you quoted. I said I "never got" such
an instruction. I'm well aware that had tower actually said
to me "ground, .7" I would have been all set. Unfortunately,
they did not do so. I operate out of BED, so I expect to hear
them say "turn left at Golf, ground .7" and they didn't in the
confusion of switching controllers in the tower.

--
David Rind

Newps wrote:



A taxi instruction is never a clearance to enter a runway, I don't see
what's so difficult about that.

It routinely is. You can cross all runways on the way to your assigned
runway. Those runways may or may not be in use.

Almost... in the USA, you have permission to cross all runways on the
way to your assigned runway, EXCEPT the active runway.

For example, you are cleared taxi to runway 18 from the FBO at
position A. You may cross runway 4-22, but must hold short of 18-36
and get permission to cross 18-36 before proceeding northbound on the
west taxiway to takeoff runway 18: (Best viewed with fixed width fonts).


----18
| | 4
----|---/------ A-FBO
| | /
| |/
| /|
| / |
22 |
| |
----36


Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 197 Young Eagles!

ahhhh...
BT

"David Rind" wrote in message
...
BTIZ wrote:
"David Rind" wrote in message
...

I landed at BED a couple of days ago, and as I was rolling out
the controllers switched, so I never got the usual instruction
to "turn off at Golf, ground .7". Since Golf was the first
taxiway to turn off on anyway, I made the turn off.

snip

I'm wondering if anyone disagrees and thinks the right thing to
do was what I actually did -- stay with the Tower until I could
get permission to change to Ground.

snip

--


David, in your own post, you state that the tower DID tell you to
contact
ground. In the first paragraph, "turn left at Golf, ground .7".. most
towers
will shorten the statement as BED did, "most" ground controls are always
121.x.. so the ".7" is 121.7

BT

Sorry to take up bandwith with this, but please look at that
first paragraph of mine you quoted. I said I "never got" such
an instruction. I'm well aware that had tower actually said
to me "ground, .7" I would have been all set. Unfortunately,
they did not do so. I operate out of BED, so I expect to hear
them say "turn left at Golf, ground .7" and they didn't in the
confusion of switching controllers in the tower.

--
David Rind