"Cleared Straight-In Runway X; Report Y Miles Final"

You're changing your story. In your initial message you wrote; "At 5
miles
from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report '5 mile
final'." So which is it? Were you on final when you reported or were you
offset from the centerline?

Both. I WAS on Final, and I WAS offset from the centerline. What a
concept!

You say that like it's a matter of opinion.

It certainly appears to be on this forum (and unlike some of you "Final is A
Single Degree" Club members, I at least understand your opinion). Do you
understand mine? (as well as the opinons of those members of the ATC
community that I am basing my position on)?

Regards, Jim


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:qHoTc.37435$ih.16698@fed1read07...

Nope. I was at a position EXACTLY where I claimed to be. I was 5 miles
from the airport, and I WAS on final. Thus "5 Miles Final."


You're changing your story. In your initial message you wrote; "At 5
miles
from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report '5 mile
final'." So which is it? Were you on final when you reported or were you
offset from the centerline?



As I have attempted to point out numerous times, the real issue is:
"Must
you be on the extended centerline to be on final?" You believe the
answer
is "Yes." I belive that the answer is "No."


You say that like it's a matter of opinion.

Jim Cummiskey wrote:

As I have attempted to point out numerous times, the real issue is: "Must
you be on the extended centerline to be on final?" You believe the answer
is "Yes." I belive that the answer is "No."

You are wrong. Final is defined as the extended centerline.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

You might wish to consider a different set of sources...

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Report" - Used to instruct pilots to
advise ATC of specified information; e,.g. "Report passing Hamilton VOR."

This is essentially what your controller said to you.

Again: from the Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Traffic Pattern": "Final
Approach" - A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline. The final approach normally extends from the base leg to
the runway. An aircraft making a straight-in approach VFR is also considered
to be on final approach.

IIRC, you stated that you were essentially flying straight to the numbers
from your present position (if it was someone else who said that, I
apologize). By even the most liberal reading of the above definitions this
procedure would be incorrect. You should be on the runway centerline when
you cross it's intersection with base.

Before proceeding, let's pick up one more definition from the
Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Straight-In Approach VFR" - Entry into the
traffic pattern by interception of the extended runway centerline (final
approach course) without executing any other portion of the traffic pattern.

Let's take a look at a sentence from one of the above definitions: "An
aircraft making a straight-in approach VFR is also considered to be on final
approach". I suppose many readings could be placed on this, but it's meaning
is quite simple: If an aircraft is making a straight-in approach VFR, the
final approach leg is extended away from the runway from the intersection
with the base leg to the aircraft's position on the extended centerline. All
it is doing is extending the length of the final approach.

So, to sum up:

Under any circumstances, when flying a straight-in approach VFR, the
aircraft should be on the extended runway centerline (obviously flying
runway heading) at the point where the runway extended centerline intersects
with the base leg, unless otherwise instructed. Obviously, the exact
location of this intersection is somewhat nebulous, but most pilots should
be able to hit it fairly closely.

I noted "unless otherwise instructed"; here is the instruction: "'Cleared
Straight-in; Report X miles Final". The troublesome part seems to be:
"Report X miles Final". But if you put the deleted words back in the meaning
is quite clear: "Report YOUR POSITION WHEN YOU ARE X miles OUT ON Final". It
then becomes obvious that, in order to comply with the controller's request,
you would need to be on the extended centerline five miles out.

That would be the absolute minimum distance at which you should intersect
the extended centerline.

But, a "common sense" reading of all of the relevant information gives the
impression that the intent of all of this is that when a pilot is cleared
"Straight-In VFR", he/she should fly as quickly as reasonable feasible to
the extended centerline, then begin flying the final approach.

Now, let's look at some of the other things you noted:

Regarding the IMPRECISE argument, don't you usually manage to put your
wheels PRECISELY on the top surface of the runway. Realistically, tolerances
are a part of flying. But, in the instance at hand, you would probably been
fine if your reported at six miles out. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to do
things a little early.

"Final is a general direction". No, final is the extended centerline of the
runway.In fact, a land surveying crew could locate a point on that line 100
miles away from the airport. So, it comes down to the abilities of the pilot
and the accuracy of his/her equipment.

"Final is a state of mind". No, final is a defined line coursed in a
specified direction. And I'm afraid your examples have no merit, primarily
because of familiarity. True, S-turns have you flying varying courses, but
your overall direction of flight is along the extended centerline. Most
everyone involved is aware of wake turbulence, of the offset method for
avoiding it, and the controller will generally know what type of aircraft is
ahead of you, which would provide a justification for your offset course.
Everyone is aware of gusts and slips. You aren't making a very good argument
on this.

I hope you are able to get this resolved...





"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
Okay, I'll give it one more go. Like many of you, I am fascinated by this
passion for flight that occupies many of our souls. I started this thread
to present a real-world flying example that I thought some of you would
find
interesting. Judging by the many different perspectives presented, many
of
you seem quite engaged by the topic. Initially, I also hoped to learn
something, and share a possible flying error that I thought I may have
committed, so that others could potentially learn something. And, yes, I
am
an ATP/CFII who's very lucky to be able to fly an aerobatic,
high-performance, complex, taildragger from Mexico to Canada--and
everywhere
in between. I'm fairly experienced, but that doesn't mean that I don't
make
constant mistakes while flying (like all of you).

Of course, USENET has its limitations (not the least of which is having to
occasionally come into contact with rude, over-bearing people who insist
on
making presumptuous personal attacks in their zeal to convince people how
much smarter they are than anyone else). I won't engage in similar
behavior, but I think everyone knows the individuals I'm talking about.
For
those of you who have approached this topic professionally, without
resorting to such uncivil conduct, I thank you for your insights and
thoughts. I'm always amazed at how the relative anonymity of the Internet
compels people to make the most absurd and offensive comments about
complete
strangers. During my 20 years in the Marine Corps, such communication in
public would often end up with the offending individual picking his teeth
off the bar-room floor.

In between all the nasty comments and boorish behavior, I still think
there's a lot of valuable learning going on, so I'll persist. I think
I've
been able to finally resolve the issue I originally presented (at least in
my mind).

Here's what I learned thus far, and how:

I called a Class C airport near where I reside and spoke to their "ATC
Procedures Specialist" named Doug. Doug told me many interesting things:

(1) The expression "Report 5 miles final" is not an instruction. It is
not standard phraseology, and thus it is merely a request. Hence, there
was
no legal obligation to even comply with the request (certainly there was
no
violation of the FARs as some of you seem to believe). Moreover, Doug
believes there is never a requirement to fly to a precise spot on the
extended centerline during a VFR final approach (as some of you so
passionately have stated repeatedly)--regardless of whether the controller
makes this "Report X miles Final" REQUEST.

(2) At Doug's airport, they consider every approach within a 45 degree
cone of the centerline to comply with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction. Clearly, there is NO OBLIGATION to intercept the centerline
at
any PARTICULAR point (although it must be intercepted at SOME point to
land
the plane; which I clearly did in this case--at ~1/2 mile from the
numbers).

I then called KPRC, and spoke to a very cordial gentlemen named Mr. Paul
Wirdsky (sp?), who is assigned as the Tower Manager. He is the supervisor
of the controller who precipitated this thread. After listening to my
account, he stated the following:

(1) He believes his controller clearly made a mistake, and that there
is
no obligation for a pilot to intercept the centerline precisely at any
particular point. In his view, flying directly towards the airport as I
did, and aligning with the runway at about 1/2 NM before landing, was the
proper and correct thing to do.

(2) He is reviewing the tape, and will counsel the controller on her
well-intended but poorly-delivered "correction" of a pilot when the
controller mistakenly applied her own personal misinterpretation of the
regulations.

These guys seem fairly definitive to me. Oops, sorry--this is USENET. I
know some of you still will never accept their well-informed opinions, so
let me offer some additional ideas for you to think about (so perhaps
logic
will prevail where expert opinion does not).

In reference to the following definition:

STRAIGHT-IN APPROACH VFR- Entry into the traffic pattern by interception
of
the extended runway centerline (final approach course) without executing
any
other portion of the traffic pattern.

There is nothing in this definition that suggests the pilot must intercept
the extended runway centerline at any particular point (rather it simply
must be intercepted at SOME point). Consequently, the real issue I posed
is
whether one can be "on final" without being precisely on the extended
centerline. I believe you obviously can. Here's some specific themes on
the topic:

(1) Flying is inherently IMPRECISE. Specifically, nobody flies on or
intercepts an extended centerline PRECISELY. No one. Not on an ILS, not
visually, not ever. If the FAR and PTS standard was "The Applicant must
intercept the extended centerline at precisely the distance instructed by
the controller to report on final," not one of us would have our tickets.
So, what's an acceptable level of precision? I asked this question
before,
but none of the naysayers seemed to respond. If I HAVE to fly to the
extended centerline at precisely 5NM, how far can I be off and not violate
the FARs? 1 foot? 10 feet? 1/4 mile? BTW, how does even one FIND this
precise position without reference to a GPS? Even if I have a GPS, do we
measure from the numbers, the touchdown zone, or the Airport Reference
Point
(ARP)? Clearly, trying to apply this level of precision when flying VFR
at
150 kts is ridiculous. I think a better standard might be the one posed
by
the ATC Procedures Specialist above where "every approach within a 45
degree
cone of the centerline complies with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction."

(2) "Final" is a general direction. I can approach any airport from any
one
of 360 possible angles (in whole degrees). Thus, the odds are 1/360 that
the direction I am approaching from is precisely aligned with the runway
centerline. The question you should ask yourself is what maximum number
of
degrees you would be comfortable being offset from the centerline so that
you would call it a final approach? 0.1 deg? 1 deg? 10 degs? 30 degs?
45 degs? In other words, don't think of final as ONE specific heading,
but
a SET of headings all generally aligned towards the runway. A downwind
and
base leg should similarly be defined in terms of a GENERAL direction--not
a
specific and precise line.

(3) "Final" is a state of mind. If I MUST be on the extended centerline
to
be on "final" (a statement which many of you have made), how do you
account
for S-Turns? How do you justify deliberately off-setting for wake
turbulence? When a gust knocks me off the centerline, am I no longer on
final? If I slip it in without once being on the centerline (until the
flare), did I just make an approach "without flying a final?" Please.

BTW, since many of you asked: There was no traffic within the Class D
airspace known to me--certainly none in my view, and the control frequency
was not used at any time between my initial check-in, and my "5 Mile
Final"
report. FWIW, I also learned that the KPRC Tower has radar.

In short, I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this
particular
situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct. I would do
the
exact same thing next time, and I encourage my fellow pilots to consider
doing the same. That said, there's certainly nothing WRONG with
offsetting
to intercept the extended centerline at an extended distance from the
airport in order to get more time to get setup for the landing, etc. (just
a
little circuitous for my tastes--as well as potentially dangerous or
impracticable in some situations when considering terrain, etc.). Of
course, many of you will find gross fault with the above, while continuing
to nit-pick, argue about punctuation, and throw wildly uninformed
accusations about the competency of myself and the ATC folks I've cited
above. Ahhh, USENET. Recommend everyone try to get a little less
keyboard
time, and a whole lot more stick time. Thanks!

Fair winds,

Jim

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
Hi, all. Ran into this one flying back from KOSH a couple weeks ago:

I check in with the KPRC controller "20 Miles NE" of Love Field in
Prescott,
AZ. She clears me with "Cleared Straight-in Runway 21L, Report 5 miles
final."

I fly directly towards the numbers. My heading was approximately 240
(hence, I'm ~30 deg off of the extended centerline).

At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report
"5
mile final." She questions my position and gets all snippy (indeed,
darn
right rude) that I am "not on final" since I am not on the extended
centerline. She patronizingly cautions me to be "careful about this."

Hence, the question is "What does 'Cleared Straight-in; Report X miles
Final" really mean?" Is it. . . .

(1) You must fly directly from your current position to a point on the
extended centerline that is X miles from the numbers, and then report
(sounds like a base to me).

or

(2) You can fly directly from your current position to the numbers (thus
"straight-in"), and report when you are X miles away.

I obviously vote for #2, but the controller clearly thought otherwise
(it
seems to me that if 30 deg = "straight-in" in the IFR domain, it ought
to
work well enough for VFR situations). Regardless, it is potentially
dangerous when controllers and pilots define things differently. Which
definition is right?

Regards, Jim

Thanks for your comments, Bill. You are able to express your point of view
clearly without resorting to the uncivil sentiments used by many others on
this forum.

In respect to my sources, I believe the opinions of a Class C "ATC
Procedures Specialist" at one of the business airports in Southern
California, in conjunction with the Tower Manager at the airport where the
supposed infraction took place trump any other source offered on this forum
thus far. Indeed, the regulations (FAR and Order 7110.65) are often less
than crystal-clear on sticky issues such as these (that's why the FAA
publishes a FAQ to explain the FAR; if only we had a FAQ to explain the FAQ
g). In short, both of these credentialed and informed gentlemen believe
that you do NOT have to be on the extended centerline to be on "final."
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I share their view.

As I've stated multiple times, I was approximately on the extended runway
centerline when a "textbook" base would turn into a final (~1/2 mile from
the numbers). Thus, I met the definition of the "Final Approach" you cite
below.

I understand your position on everything you've stated, however, perhaps
another example might illustrate my "common sense" point (as you put it).
At KSNA, the parallel runway 19L has a special approach procedure called out
in the AFD. Specifically, it requires all pilots to offset 15 degrees when
approaching the runway. Hence, properly flown, the pilot will never
intersect the extended centerline until in the flare. I've landed on this
runway literally thousands of times--have I never been on final? If not a
final, what would YOU call it?

Regards, Jim


"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
You might wish to consider a different set of sources...

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Report" - Used to instruct pilots to
advise ATC of specified information; e,.g. "Report passing Hamilton VOR."

This is essentially what your controller said to you.

Again: from the Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Traffic Pattern": "Final
Approach" - A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline. The final approach normally extends from the base leg
to
the runway. An aircraft making a straight-in approach VFR is also
considered
to be on final approach.

IIRC, you stated that you were essentially flying straight to the numbers
from your present position (if it was someone else who said that, I
apologize). By even the most liberal reading of the above definitions this
procedure would be incorrect. You should be on the runway centerline when
you cross it's intersection with base.

Before proceeding, let's pick up one more definition from the
Pilot/Controller Glossary: "Straight-In Approach VFR" - Entry into the
traffic pattern by interception of the extended runway centerline (final
approach course) without executing any other portion of the traffic
pattern.

Let's take a look at a sentence from one of the above definitions: "An
aircraft making a straight-in approach VFR is also considered to be on
final
approach". I suppose many readings could be placed on this, but it's
meaning
is quite simple: If an aircraft is making a straight-in approach VFR, the
final approach leg is extended away from the runway from the intersection
with the base leg to the aircraft's position on the extended centerline.
All
it is doing is extending the length of the final approach.

So, to sum up:

Under any circumstances, when flying a straight-in approach VFR, the
aircraft should be on the extended runway centerline (obviously flying
runway heading) at the point where the runway extended centerline
intersects
with the base leg, unless otherwise instructed. Obviously, the exact
location of this intersection is somewhat nebulous, but most pilots should
be able to hit it fairly closely.

I noted "unless otherwise instructed"; here is the instruction: "'Cleared
Straight-in; Report X miles Final". The troublesome part seems to be:
"Report X miles Final". But if you put the deleted words back in the
meaning
is quite clear: "Report YOUR POSITION WHEN YOU ARE X miles OUT ON Final".
It
then becomes obvious that, in order to comply with the controller's
request,
you would need to be on the extended centerline five miles out.

That would be the absolute minimum distance at which you should intersect
the extended centerline.

But, a "common sense" reading of all of the relevant information gives the
impression that the intent of all of this is that when a pilot is cleared
"Straight-In VFR", he/she should fly as quickly as reasonable feasible to
the extended centerline, then begin flying the final approach.

Now, let's look at some of the other things you noted:

Regarding the IMPRECISE argument, don't you usually manage to put your
wheels PRECISELY on the top surface of the runway. Realistically,
tolerances
are a part of flying. But, in the instance at hand, you would probably
been
fine if your reported at six miles out. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to do
things a little early.

"Final is a general direction". No, final is the extended centerline of
the
runway.In fact, a land surveying crew could locate a point on that line
100
miles away from the airport. So, it comes down to the abilities of the
pilot
and the accuracy of his/her equipment.

"Final is a state of mind". No, final is a defined line coursed in a
specified direction. And I'm afraid your examples have no merit, primarily
because of familiarity. True, S-turns have you flying varying courses, but
your overall direction of flight is along the extended centerline. Most
everyone involved is aware of wake turbulence, of the offset method for
avoiding it, and the controller will generally know what type of aircraft
is
ahead of you, which would provide a justification for your offset course.
Everyone is aware of gusts and slips. You aren't making a very good
argument
on this.

I hope you are able to get this resolved...





"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
Okay, I'll give it one more go. Like many of you, I am fascinated by
this
passion for flight that occupies many of our souls. I started this
thread
to present a real-world flying example that I thought some of you would
find
interesting. Judging by the many different perspectives presented, many
of
you seem quite engaged by the topic. Initially, I also hoped to learn
something, and share a possible flying error that I thought I may have
committed, so that others could potentially learn something. And, yes,
I
am
an ATP/CFII who's very lucky to be able to fly an aerobatic,
high-performance, complex, taildragger from Mexico to Canada--and
everywhere
in between. I'm fairly experienced, but that doesn't mean that I don't
make
constant mistakes while flying (like all of you).

Of course, USENET has its limitations (not the least of which is having
to
occasionally come into contact with rude, over-bearing people who insist
on
making presumptuous personal attacks in their zeal to convince people
how
much smarter they are than anyone else). I won't engage in similar
behavior, but I think everyone knows the individuals I'm talking about.
For
those of you who have approached this topic professionally, without
resorting to such uncivil conduct, I thank you for your insights and
thoughts. I'm always amazed at how the relative anonymity of the
Internet
compels people to make the most absurd and offensive comments about
complete
strangers. During my 20 years in the Marine Corps, such communication
in
public would often end up with the offending individual picking his
teeth
off the bar-room floor.

In between all the nasty comments and boorish behavior, I still think
there's a lot of valuable learning going on, so I'll persist. I think
I've
been able to finally resolve the issue I originally presented (at least
in
my mind).

Here's what I learned thus far, and how:

I called a Class C airport near where I reside and spoke to their "ATC
Procedures Specialist" named Doug. Doug told me many interesting
things:

(1) The expression "Report 5 miles final" is not an instruction. It
is
not standard phraseology, and thus it is merely a request. Hence, there
was
no legal obligation to even comply with the request (certainly there was
no
violation of the FARs as some of you seem to believe). Moreover, Doug
believes there is never a requirement to fly to a precise spot on the
extended centerline during a VFR final approach (as some of you so
passionately have stated repeatedly)--regardless of whether the
controller
makes this "Report X miles Final" REQUEST.

(2) At Doug's airport, they consider every approach within a 45
degree
cone of the centerline to comply with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction. Clearly, there is NO OBLIGATION to intercept the
centerline
at
any PARTICULAR point (although it must be intercepted at SOME point to
land
the plane; which I clearly did in this case--at ~1/2 mile from the
numbers).

I then called KPRC, and spoke to a very cordial gentlemen named Mr. Paul
Wirdsky (sp?), who is assigned as the Tower Manager. He is the
supervisor
of the controller who precipitated this thread. After listening to my
account, he stated the following:

(1) He believes his controller clearly made a mistake, and that there
is
no obligation for a pilot to intercept the centerline precisely at any
particular point. In his view, flying directly towards the airport as I
did, and aligning with the runway at about 1/2 NM before landing, was
the
proper and correct thing to do.

(2) He is reviewing the tape, and will counsel the controller on her
well-intended but poorly-delivered "correction" of a pilot when the
controller mistakenly applied her own personal misinterpretation of the
regulations.

These guys seem fairly definitive to me. Oops, sorry--this is USENET.
I
know some of you still will never accept their well-informed opinions,
so
let me offer some additional ideas for you to think about (so perhaps
logic
will prevail where expert opinion does not).

In reference to the following definition:

STRAIGHT-IN APPROACH VFR- Entry into the traffic pattern by interception
of
the extended runway centerline (final approach course) without executing
any
other portion of the traffic pattern.

There is nothing in this definition that suggests the pilot must
intercept
the extended runway centerline at any particular point (rather it simply
must be intercepted at SOME point). Consequently, the real issue I
posed
is
whether one can be "on final" without being precisely on the extended
centerline. I believe you obviously can. Here's some specific themes
on
the topic:

(1) Flying is inherently IMPRECISE. Specifically, nobody flies on or
intercepts an extended centerline PRECISELY. No one. Not on an ILS,
not
visually, not ever. If the FAR and PTS standard was "The Applicant must
intercept the extended centerline at precisely the distance instructed
by
the controller to report on final," not one of us would have our
tickets.
So, what's an acceptable level of precision? I asked this question
before,
but none of the naysayers seemed to respond. If I HAVE to fly to the
extended centerline at precisely 5NM, how far can I be off and not
violate
the FARs? 1 foot? 10 feet? 1/4 mile? BTW, how does even one FIND this
precise position without reference to a GPS? Even if I have a GPS, do
we
measure from the numbers, the touchdown zone, or the Airport Reference
Point
(ARP)? Clearly, trying to apply this level of precision when flying VFR
at
150 kts is ridiculous. I think a better standard might be the one posed
by
the ATC Procedures Specialist above where "every approach within a 45
degree
cone of the centerline complies with the "Make Straight In, Runway X"
instruction."

(2) "Final" is a general direction. I can approach any airport from any
one
of 360 possible angles (in whole degrees). Thus, the odds are 1/360
that
the direction I am approaching from is precisely aligned with the runway
centerline. The question you should ask yourself is what maximum number
of
degrees you would be comfortable being offset from the centerline so
that
you would call it a final approach? 0.1 deg? 1 deg? 10 degs? 30
degs?
45 degs? In other words, don't think of final as ONE specific heading,
but
a SET of headings all generally aligned towards the runway. A downwind
and
base leg should similarly be defined in terms of a GENERAL
direction--not
a
specific and precise line.

(3) "Final" is a state of mind. If I MUST be on the extended centerline
to
be on "final" (a statement which many of you have made), how do you
account
for S-Turns? How do you justify deliberately off-setting for wake
turbulence? When a gust knocks me off the centerline, am I no longer on
final? If I slip it in without once being on the centerline (until the
flare), did I just make an approach "without flying a final?" Please.

BTW, since many of you asked: There was no traffic within the Class D
airspace known to me--certainly none in my view, and the control
frequency
was not used at any time between my initial check-in, and my "5 Mile
Final"
report. FWIW, I also learned that the KPRC Tower has radar.

In short, I've concluded my decision-making and behavior in this
particular
situation to be safe, legal, justifiable, and 100% correct. I would do
the
exact same thing next time, and I encourage my fellow pilots to consider
doing the same. That said, there's certainly nothing WRONG with
offsetting
to intercept the extended centerline at an extended distance from the
airport in order to get more time to get setup for the landing, etc.
(just
a
little circuitous for my tastes--as well as potentially dangerous or
impracticable in some situations when considering terrain, etc.). Of
course, many of you will find gross fault with the above, while
continuing
to nit-pick, argue about punctuation, and throw wildly uninformed
accusations about the competency of myself and the ATC folks I've cited
above. Ahhh, USENET. Recommend everyone try to get a little less
keyboard
time, and a whole lot more stick time. Thanks!

Fair winds,

Jim

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
Hi, all. Ran into this one flying back from KOSH a couple weeks ago:

I check in with the KPRC controller "20 Miles NE" of Love Field in
Prescott,
AZ. She clears me with "Cleared Straight-in Runway 21L, Report 5
miles
final."

I fly directly towards the numbers. My heading was approximately 240
(hence, I'm ~30 deg off of the extended centerline).

At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I
report
"5
mile final." She questions my position and gets all snippy (indeed,
darn
right rude) that I am "not on final" since I am not on the extended
centerline. She patronizingly cautions me to be "careful about this."

Hence, the question is "What does 'Cleared Straight-in; Report X miles
Final" really mean?" Is it. . . .

(1) You must fly directly from your current position to a point on
the
extended centerline that is X miles from the numbers, and then report
(sounds like a base to me).

or

(2) You can fly directly from your current position to the numbers
(thus
"straight-in"), and report when you are X miles away.

I obviously vote for #2, but the controller clearly thought otherwise
(it
seems to me that if 30 deg = "straight-in" in the IFR domain, it ought
to
work well enough for VFR situations). Regardless, it is potentially
dangerous when controllers and pilots define things differently.
Which
definition is right?

Regards, Jim

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
news:g_oTc.37437$ih.15436@fed1read07...

In respect to my sources, I believe the opinions of a Class C "ATC
Procedures Specialist" at one of the business airports in Southern
California, in conjunction with the Tower Manager at the airport where the
supposed infraction took place trump any other source offered on this
forum
thus far. Indeed, the regulations (FAR and Order 7110.65) are often less
than crystal-clear on sticky issues such as these (that's why the FAA
publishes a FAQ to explain the FAR; if only we had a FAQ to explain the
FAQ g).


But the FAR and FAA Order 7110.65 are crystal clear on this issue.



In short, both of these credentialed and informed gentlemen believe
that you do NOT have to be on the extended centerline to be on "final."
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I share their view.


Pertinent documentation indicates that the three of you are wrong.

"Bill Denton" wrote


I hope you are able to get this resolved...

Jim will never get it resolved, but one way; his way. He is right, and if
you don't believe that, just ask him.

I'm glad that he feels comfortable with the criteria for flight he has
chosen. I only hope that I am never in the same portion of big sky that he
is in.
--
Jim in NC


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Gee, thanks Jim--another superb retort by the "The Final is a Single Degree"
crowd. Gosh, your Blues-Angel-like proficiency is scary, intimidating, and
thrilling (all at once). It gives me goosepimples!

Jim will never get it resolved, but one way; his way. He is right, and if
you don't believe that, just ask him.

No, ATC Doug, ATC Paul, and ATC Newps are also right. I happen to agree
with them.

Regards, Jim

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Bill Denton" wrote


I hope you are able to get this resolved...

Jim will never get it resolved, but one way; his way. He is right, and if
you don't believe that, just ask him.

I'm glad that he feels comfortable with the criteria for flight he has
chosen. I only hope that I am never in the same portion of big sky that
he
is in.
--
Jim in NC


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IMO, you don't have to be an "expert" on interpreting the FARs ... the input,
expert or not, of everyone who flies is important on this one. Obviously, we
should always be scanning everywhere, but there *are* specific areas where
majority of us *initially* look for traffic said to be in various stages of the
traffic pattern, i.e., *on the extended runway centerline* for other "traffic
on straight-in final", and it's important to your own safety and the safety of
others that you *are* there when your position is announced, either by yourself
or by an ATC.

The issue isn't who is "right" or "wrong", but rather the arrogant,
disappointing attitude that being "right" makes it okay to put yourself in a
spot where you **KNOW** other pilots won't expect you to be if you are
instructed to make "straight-in" final. The ATC thought it was enough of a
concern to call it to your attention ... instead of understanding and
acknowledging WHY she felt it was important to do so, you are ticked-off that
she mentioned it, concerned about not being "wrong", and playing semantics with
the arguments. If this isn't just a great exercise in trolling, I hope, for the
safety of everyone who shares the sky with you, that you get over it soon.

Appreciate the feedback, Maria. Good points, and I understand and agree
with your comments about the FARs and the expectations of pilots regarding
position reports.

However, a few comments:

acknowledging WHY she felt it was important to do so, you are ticked-off
that
she mentioned it, concerned about not being "wrong", and playing semantics
with
the arguments. If this isn't just a great exercise in trolling, I hope,
for the
safety of everyone who shares the sky with you, that you get over it soon.

Actually, ATC Doug has a theory WHY she felt it was important for her to
call it to my attention. According to Doug, KPRC is a training facility,
and they have a lot of inexperienced controllers there undergoing training.
As I reported earlier, there was no radio traffic (to my recollection)
within five minutes either side of my initial radio call and my wheels
touching down. Since I was responsible for my own separation, I was quite
attentive to traffic. I don't think there was any other traffic in the
entire Class D airspace. Doug thinks the controller was "pulling my
chain"--perhaps ensuring I understood the domain of her authority on a slow
Sunday morning. But, according to ATC Paul, the Tower Manager, HIS
controller was absolutely WRONG! Does his vote count? Or, am I still just
a troller?

So, yes Maria. I am very concerned about "not being wrong" when I fly. The
consequences are too high. The point is: if it IS perfectly proper
procedure to fly "angled finals" and report them as "finals," then shouldn't
we pilots began to do a little better job of scanning the entire final
quadrant vice only checking only the extended centerline?

So, it has nothing to do with the "semantics of the arguments." It has to
do with coming up with a common language so that when a Controller says X,
the Pilot understands X (and vice-versa). The bottom line is that in this
case we had a clear disconnect. And, three members of the ATC community
agree that "flying directly to the airport, aligning myself with the runway,
and landing" while reporting "5 miles final" at five miles offset from the
centerline was PERFECTLY correct (indeed very COMMON behavior in the
hundreds of airports I've experienced).

Or maybe, you're saying I should have reported "5 miles" only? "5 miles
NE?" How about "5 miles angled final?" Or, is your position, "You can't
fly an angled final ever!?" If so, in the absence of a specific
controller's "Report 'instruction,'" what are you proposing is the minimum
distance every pilot should be on the extended centerline (less I spoil the
the safety of the national airspace system for everyone)? And, what do I
SAY to avoid crashing into someone? Gosh, all us people who have the
arrogance to occasionally fly without radios must really upset all of you
folks who's safety is compromised without continuous position reports. What
happened to "See and Avoid" and "Keep that head on a swivel?"

Regards, Jim

"MariaSanguini" wrote in message
...
IMO, you don't have to be an "expert" on interpreting the FARs ... the
input,
expert or not, of everyone who flies is important on this one. Obviously,
we
should always be scanning everywhere, but there *are* specific areas where
majority of us *initially* look for traffic said to be in various stages
of the
traffic pattern, i.e., *on the extended runway centerline* for other
"traffic
on straight-in final", and it's important to your own safety and the
safety of
others that you *are* there when your position is announced, either by
yourself
or by an ATC.

The issue isn't who is "right" or "wrong", but rather the arrogant,
disappointing attitude that being "right" makes it okay to put yourself in
a
spot where you **KNOW** other pilots won't expect you to be if you are
instructed to make "straight-in" final. The ATC thought it was enough of a
concern to call it to your attention ... instead of understanding and
acknowledging WHY she felt it was important to do so, you are ticked-off
that
she mentioned it, concerned about not being "wrong", and playing semantics
with
the arguments. If this isn't just a great exercise in trolling, I hope,
for the
safety of everyone who shares the sky with you, that you get over it soon.

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Under any circumstances, when flying a straight-in approach VFR, the
aircraft should be on the extended runway centerline (obviously flying
runway heading)

Track. Heading would be different according to the wind.

Ahem, sorry, since everyone seems to be nit-picking these days!

:-)

Paul