Why are commuter flights so expensive?

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:54:49 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:

who has less money? European consumers or the European airlines?

Consumers in general. I don't think the disparity is enormous and in any
case there's no question that a European with a decent job can enjoy a very
nice quality of life.

ok

Also, assuming that an American family and European
one would both budget say $2000 for a vacation, the European family will
likely be trying to spread it across a longer trip.

probably, yes.

In the US the typical
vacation trip is a week, occasionally ten days, once in a while two weeks.

same here.

And that's pretty much it for the year.

maybe, depending on budget and houshold income, there is an additional week
for holidays. For example 10 days to 2 weeks in summer and an additional
week in winter. Or maybe a longer weekend, filled with a holiday and an
additional day off.

When I worked for Bertelsmann my
German comrades would typically take three or four weeks off in the summer,
and two or three in the winter.

this would then be not paid in full. about 4 to 5 weeks is typical. and as
you said: they take some weeks off, but this does not mean that they
drive/fly away.

Likewise when I was in Thailand a few years
back, most of the Europeans I ran into were there for at least a month.

most likely very many retired people. My last holiday was in 2002 - but
this is a different story.

So
you guys need to stretch your money a little further even if salaries were
identical, which they are not.

they aren't, for sure. but you need the plus for paying for your own
insurance etc.; and here we typically only need one job, whereas in the US
many have to work 2 or 3 jobs (which is _VERY_ unusual for Europe).

tickets from Europe to the US east cost (both ways) sell for about EUR
500.00 - and with the fall of the exchange rate it is now about 40%
cheaper
to spend holidays in the US than it was in 2002. So be friendly to those
French .. they (and others) have the money to spend in the US-tourism
industry.

So long as they tip 15% in bars and restaraunts they will be quite welcome.

ah well, as always it comes down to money :-)
hm, you have to bring them to the US in the first place. Politics is doing
its best to keep tourists away. Many tourists only seek "sun, beach, other
culture, other people" and not the USA or any other specific country. So
they can virtually go anyplace else (Cuba, the Dominican Republic or many
countries bordering the Mediterranean Sea [Egypt, Turkey, Greece, ...] are
very popular).

-cwk.

#m
--
The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free,
neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.
Thomas Jefferson

In the Airline biz they have Revenue Per Seat Mile.
Some pay First Class, some are coach, a few got a package, some
purchased
through a consolidator, and some bought the ticket on Priceline. The
bean
counters in Chicago, Minneapolis, Dallas, and Atlanta crunch the
numbers
and voila!

Right, but -- correct me if I'm wrong -- aren't the airlines pretty
much universally losing money?

Sounds like their method is flawed, to me.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"C Kingsbury" wrote in message
ink.net...

So long as they tip 15% in bars and restaraunts they will be quite
welcome.

providing those working in the bars and restaurants earn it.


When I worked for a European company I frequently went out for meals with
senior managers visitng from Germany, the UK, etc. We'd spend $385 on dinner
at a steakhouse where you had a waiter, a busboy, and a sommelier serving
the table and they'd sign the credit card slip for $400. At a Chili's-type
place the waitress would be lucky if she got more than change for a dollar.
After the second or third time I gave up trying to explain "American
customs" to them, after all, they were my bosses. The last time we went to
the Palm I thought the waiters were going to jump us on our way out they
were so mad. It was a sign of things to come as the US office failed in
large part because these guys refused to understand that the American market
did not function the same as the European one and they needed a different
strategy.

FWIW I have seen my share of Americans making fools of themselves in other
cultures in both personal and business settings. Perhaps the most humorous
example being a visit to the bullfights in Barcelona. There were four or
five guys in front of us, very obviously American, and every time the
matador would land a killing shot with his sword, they would jump up and
yell, "Touchdown!"

-cwk.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:14:30 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:

When I worked for a European company I frequently went out for meals with
senior managers visitng from Germany, the UK, etc. We'd spend $385 on dinner
at a steakhouse where you had a waiter, a busboy, and a sommelier serving
the table and they'd sign the credit card slip for $400. At a Chili's-type

*hehe*
yep, in Europe most likely you don't calculate a percentage as a tip but
more likely you round up the total. And I don't like the idea of *expected*
tipping - even as part of their income. Let the boss pay their wages (even
if this would mean to raise the prices on the menue). I generally only tip
if the service was more than average (friendly and prompt service is part
of the job and is expected).

most likely (my personal experience) the staff at any establishment I've
been so far in the US mostly doesn't deserve any tip at all. They (mostly)
have no knowledge of their job and work this job only besides their college
or whatever. All they can say is "Haa-aiiiiiiii, my name is Janine, and I
am you waitress for tonight - our special for today is ..." and then she
serves the plates with her fingers right beside the food. Disgusting.
[yeah, generalised; there sure are well trained waiters out there in the
US]

place the waitress would be lucky if she got more than change for a dollar.
After the second or third time I gave up trying to explain "American
customs" to them, after all, they were my bosses. The last time we went to
the Palm I thought the waiters were going to jump us on our way out they
were so mad. It was a sign of things to come as the US office failed in
large part because these guys refused to understand that the American market
did not function the same as the European one and they needed a different
strategy.

You're right, the American market follows different rules than the European
market (different values, resulting in different ways for marketing a
placing a product in the market, ...).

#m

--
The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free,
neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.
Thomas Jefferson

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:14:30 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:

When I worked for a European company I frequently went out for meals with
senior managers visitng from Germany, the UK, etc. We'd spend $385 on
dinner
at a steakhouse where you had a waiter, a busboy, and a sommelier serving
the table and they'd sign the credit card slip for $400. At a Chili's-type

*hehe*
yep, in Europe most likely you don't calculate a percentage as a tip but
more likely you round up the total. And I don't like the idea of
*expected*
tipping - even as part of their income. Let the boss pay their wages (even
if this would mean to raise the prices on the menue). I generally only tip
if the service was more than average (friendly and prompt service is part
of the job and is expected).


I would prefer to see the size of portions decrease 'cause I cannot eat it
all and instead of reducing the prices pay a decent wage. I just hate to see
good food going to waste and as for taking it home for the dog - well, I
have no dog besides which its expensive dog food.

"Chris" wrote in message
...
I would prefer to see the size of portions decrease 'cause I cannot eat it
all and instead of reducing the prices pay a decent wage. I just hate to
see good food going to waste and as for taking it home for the dog -
well, I have no dog besides which its expensive dog food.

Don't they have refrigerators in the UK?

Here in the US we do. And when a restaurant serves me twice as much food as
I can eat (which they often do), I simply take the remaining portion home
and have it for a later meal. Storing it in the refrigerator until that
time, of course.

As far as the relationship between portion sizes and prices go, there's a
reason the portions are so large in the first place. It's because portion
sizes don't have all that much to do with prices. Labor, rent, equipment
costs, etc. are a much bigger chunk of what winds up on your bill. Making
portions smaller wouldn't reduce prices by much at all.

Pete

Here in the US we do. And when a restaurant serves me twice as much food
as I can eat (which they often do), I simply take the remaining portion
home and have it for a later meal. Storing it in the refrigerator until
that time, of course.

Mary and I usually split one entree, and order an appetizer or soup.

I'm sure the wait staff hates it, but I just can't eat the portions that
most restaurants serve -- and if I can, I shouldn't!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:y2tqd.103738$V41.51654@attbi_s52...
Here in the US we do. And when a restaurant serves me twice as much food
as I can eat (which they often do), I simply take the remaining portion
home and have it for a later meal. Storing it in the refrigerator until
that time, of course.

Mary and I usually split one entree, and order an appetizer or soup.

I'm sure the wait staff hates it, but I just can't eat the portions that
most restaurants serve -- and if I can, I shouldn't!

That's not the point though.

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:14:30 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:

*hehe*
yep, in Europe most likely you don't calculate a percentage as a tip but
more likely you round up the total. And I don't like the idea of
*expected*
tipping - even as part of their income. Let the boss pay their wages (even
if this would mean to raise the prices on the menue). I generally only tip
if the service was more than average (friendly and prompt service is part
of the job and is expected).

Just keep in mind that your average waitress is paid somewhere around
$3/hour by the restaraunt. Thus if you don't tip, the person basically
doesn't get paid. You may find the "system" objectionable but don't take it
out on the person at the bottom of the food chain. When in Rome...

FWIW, the "system" does make some sense. First, it clearly connects pay to
volume of work. On a busy night you work harder and get paid more. This is
fairer to the staff and simpler for management. Second, it connects pay to
quality very directly. The waitress is essentially paid by the customer
after the service has been delivered, allowing you to vote with your wallet.

I am one of those who feels tipping is getting a little out of hand- more
and more people expect it and the percentage people think they're entitled
to keeps going up. But, I have no doubt that the alternative would lead to
much worse service.

-cwk.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
In the Airline biz they have Revenue Per Seat Mile.

Right, but -- correct me if I'm wrong -- aren't the airlines pretty
much universally losing money?

Sounds like their method is flawed, to me.

There's a couple layers of issues here.

First, the strategy of "yield management" is designed to try and maximize
the revenue per seat-mile. In and of itself this makes perfect sense. The
apparent oddities this leads to, like the Saturday-night stay rule, all make
perfect sense towards making each person pay as much as possible for their
seat. This, too, is logical: a vacationer heading to Miami does not value a
seat nearly as much as a businessman headed to an important meeting. This
benefits the vacationer because it allows for the availability of very cheap
seats, and benefits the businessman because it increases the odds he will be
able to get a seat at the last minute that he desperately needs.

Second is the issue of cost structure. No matter how you look at it, running
an airline is a hellish business. It's as capital-intensive as real estate,
only your main assets are always depreciating. Operating costs are
astounding, and not easily adjusted. Pilots, mechanics, FAs, gate leases,
etc. all add up very quickly, and it takes years to adjust the formula. So
newcomers will always have the advantage because they built their business
models around last year's conditions, and not the last decade's. But come
ten years from now those newcomers could be in just as bad shape.

Third, you have the destabilizing role of the low-cost carriers. The
critical thing that these guys have done is to throw out the yield
maximization strategy in favor of a simplified flat pricing model. And
because their built-in costs are much lower, they can undercut the majors'
prices at every step of the game. The only way for the majors to compete is
to reduce costs, and as we already explained, this takes years to
accomplish, years during which incredible sums of money fly out the door.
Their management has been at turns arrogant, ignorant, and incompetent, but
then this can be said of nearly every established company in every industry
at one time or another. Today's darlings will get their turn at the rack
sooner or later.

The problem that we have is that traditionally the low-cost carriers lived
by cherry-picking routes and thus could not be looked to to provide a truly
national network. This is a "must-have" in the same sense that the
Interstate highway system is a fundamental component of our economy and way
of life. Interestingly for us, the future is in some ways headed in our
direction. Regional jets are replacing not only the Saab 340s and Dash 8s,
but MD-80s and DC-9s as well. Many of the new airlines have all-RJ fleets
from the ground up. I suspect the smaller-is-better trend will continue as
far as technology and passenger comfort allows, with on-demand taxi services
using VLJs possibly displacing Part 121 carriers flying into less-dense
areas. Who knows.

-cwk.